Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong

Originally posted by Barcelona:
Not that this is relevant since we are talking about the US, but come to Europe and ask about moral values and religion in an exit poll and most people will tell you that we don't give a shit about these terms.
that's because europe is full of god-less, heathen socialists!

plus, with a parliamentary system, there is already a party that is geared toward what is important to you, and is provided with representation in that representative body.

but really, god has always stood side-by-side with "america." it's on the currency, it's in the declarations of our independence and founding documents. . .it's in every invocation starting the legislative day. . .and it's in every inaugural oath (except the one taken by franklin pierce). the role of god within america is really unique in the world, and one that a person really has to be here to study and understand. simply standing on the outside looking in and saying that it's a bunch of bunk does not help in an understanding of america.

oh, and as the european historian jacques barzun said: "Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball."
the word from is missing from this pair of bumpersticks seen on an suv… "Save the Bay" and "Bush/Chaney"
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
the word from is missing from this pair of bumpersticks seen on an suv… "Save the Bay" and "Bush/Chaney"
at one point, the car the fiancee and i share had the following two stickers on it: Keep Tahoe Blue and Bush/Cheney 2004.

i know.

is that more clear?
What the hell is a car fiancee?

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
the word from is missing from this pair of bumpersticks seen on an suv… "Save the Bay" and "Bush/Chaney"
at one point, the car fiancee and i share had the following two stickers on it: Keep Tahoe Blue and Bush/Cheney 2004.

i know.
I had wondered the same thing…. Hmmm, a car fiancee. Does that mean you agree to share the car until some other final arrangement is made…?
Originally posted by Bags:
I had wondered the same thing…. Hmmm, a car fiancee. Does that mean you agree to share the car until some other final arrangement is made…?
final arrangement. . i suppose you could say that. :) it's in my name, but she drives it.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
at one point, the car the fiancee and i share had the following two stickers on it: Keep Tahoe Blue and Bush/Cheney 2004.

i know.

is that more clear?
Only if the Fiancee put the Tahoe sticker on the back, because I know where you stand.
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
at one point, the car the fiancee and i share had the following two stickers on it: Keep Tahoe Blue and Bush/Cheney 2004.

i know.

is that more clear?
Only if the Fiancee put the Tahoe sticker on the back, because I know where you stand.
what do you mean? i'm way more green that she is.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by hitman:
And when it comes right down to it, most devout Christians (especially the ones who have to state how devout they are) are mostly hippocrates.
Most devout Christians are a 5th century B.C. Greek physician ????

You don't make much sense, do you?
Yeah, I'm going to assume that you've never made a spelling mistake either.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
what do you mean? i'm way more green that she is.
And yet people wonder why we can't get the exit polls right in the States these days….
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
i agree, Kerry was too "bush sucks" and not enough "i'm the one"

a negative approach doesn't get you very far most of the time.
but how much more negative can you get than Cheney saying "if Kerry is elected, then we may revert back to a pre 9/11 mindset" inferring that the big one was coming…
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by Barcelona:
Not that this is relevant since we are talking about the US, but come to Europe and ask about moral values and religion in an exit poll and most people will tell you that we don't give a shit about these terms.
that's because europe is full of god-less, heathen socialists!

plus, with a parliamentary system, there is already a party that is geared toward what is important to you, and is provided with representation in that representative body.

but really, god has always stood side-by-side with "america." it's on the currency, it's in the declarations of our independence and founding documents. . .it's in every invocation starting the legislative day. . .and it's in every inaugural oath (except the one taken by franklin pierce). the role of god within america is really unique in the world, and one that a person really has to be here to study and understand. simply standing on the outside looking in and saying that it's a bunch of bunk does not help in an understanding of america.

oh, and as the european historian jacques barzun said: "Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball."
what ever happened to the seperation of church and state? the founding fathers believed in that one too.
Originally posted by vansmack:
I would like to know who they were referring to.
Brokaw wasn't specific. This was in the wee hours of Wednesday morning when it started to look as though Ohio was lost. Brokaw's intro was about what it would mean for the party if Democrats lost. Mitchell stated the party line – that Kerry had a better plan for the economy and foreign policy but that people must have believed that "moral values" trumped those issues.

At this point, Brokaw stated that he had heard from religious voters that they felt that "the Democrats" were hostile toward them and their beliefs. Unfortunately, he was no more specific than "the Democrats".

I think Michael Moore, MoveOn and the other non-affiliated 527s made themselves the face and voice of the Dems in this election – at least in the popular view. Perhaps they don't speak for the Party, but the Party did not make much of an effort to distance itself from those rabidly anti-Bush forces.
The Values-Vote Myth
By DAVID BROOKS

Every election year, we in the commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.

In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic, Red America values-voters surged to the polls to put George Bush over the top.

This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.

Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.

It's true that Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues over all has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.

Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.

The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt. Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums.

He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.

The fact is that if you think we are safer now, you probably voted for Bush. If you think we are less safe, you probably voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.

The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals have this week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.

In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, Wal-Mart, decorum, economic opportunity, natural law, manliness, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.

But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. If you want to understand why Democrats keep losing elections, just listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?

What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/06/opinion/06brooks.html
Originally posted by Bags:
See, in the end, both parties are doing the exact same damn thing.
You better watch it Bags, you're starting to sound like me. :p
Originally posted by hitman:
what ever happened to the seperation of church and state? the founding fathers believed in that one too.
i've already had this discussion with grotty. i don't feel like finding the link. . .probably on the please vote thread.

basically, the constitution says nothing about separation of church and state, only that the govt. shall not hinder the free practice of religion. the "separation of church and state" statement was devised by jefferson many years after he left office.

the declaration of independence itself contains many references to god (albeit couched as "creator"). . .the founding fathers feared the federal government mandating a certain type of religion (ala the anglican church and england). they would have had no problem, and in fact, had no problem with referring to God (with a capital G) in official documents and ceremonies. the oath of office contains references to God, when you are sworn into any federal office, it's always before God. why are people so afraid of God?
Because here's this guy, God, who created himself perfect, and then created us in his image, for the purpose of worshipping him. And then he gets all down on our asses, because we're not as perfect as him. What a fucking egotist.

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
why are people so afraid of God?
i don't think people are "afraid" of god… it's more what happens when religion and government combine forces to impose the will of god. i.e. the spanish inquistion, the crusades, henry 8th chopping off heads and starting his own church, general oppression of non or the wrong believers, etc. remember the pilgrims first came to country to escape religious persecution and was one of the reasons for the inclusion of right to practice as one sees fit. i think jefferson was attempting to create a firewall to keep religiously zealtry to a dull roar…
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
i don't think people are "afraid" of god… it's more what happens when religion and government combine forces to impose the will of god. i.e. the spanish inquistion, the crusades, henry 8th chopping off heads and starting his own church, general oppression of non or the wrong believers, etc. remember the pilgrims first came to country to escape religious persecution and was one of the reasons for the inclusion of right to practice as one sees fit. i think jefferson was
ahhh the puritans. they left england after being persecuted, but banished those who thought differently than them.

i'll give you the spanish inquisition and the first few crusades, but round the 3rd crusade, it was simply about money, not religion. for example, the 4th crusade was hijacked by the doge of venice to simply plunder constantinople's riches and fill venice's coffers. henry the 8th. . .he wanted a divorce, pope said no, henry said, bollocks with you, left the church, and started his own, and was forced to behead thomas more.

i guess when i said why are people afraid of god, it was in a rhetorical sense. but i was more going after these extreme cases . . .why shouldn't there be a nativity scene out front of a city hall around christmas-time? why can't we say the pledge of allegiance with "under god"? are these really examples so egregious that they must be taken to court? as i pointed out earlier. . .our money says "under god," the start of each legislative day (long before today's religious right take over) began with a prayer, the swearing in of a witness concludes "so help me god." if "under god" is so terrible in the pledge of allegiance, why aren't people going after the same statement that's found on every piece of money in this country?

here's an interesting article on jefferson's letter (and i'll correct myself, it was written by jefferson whilst in office, i apologize for that error): http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/May2003/0503Dreisbach.html

the letter can be found here: http://fact.trib.com/1st.jeffers.2.html
Because Jesus never asked us to celebrate his birthday. He only asked us to accept him as our personal saviour. The Catholic church co-opted some pagan holidays, and turned it into Xmas, and capitalist pigs have built is up from there. Jesus never said anything about the fact that we should celebrate Xmas, so if we live our lives as he instructed, why the need to give him a birthday party he didn't ask for?

…or at least that's what I would think if I were religious.

…as it is, it's just a nice day to have off from work and spend with family.

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
.why shouldn't there be a nativity scene out front of a city hall around christmas-time?