Fahrenheit 9/11

Originally posted by eros:

Like Obi Wan once said, "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

Just ask Eminem.

Who is Sean Hannity?

Does he have an equally impressive moviemaking resume as Michael Moore?

If he put out a movie as good as Fahrenheit 9/11 that was about the Clinton administration, sure I'd see it.

Though if it's main emphasis was the Lewinsky affair, I think I'd have to pass and watch porn instead.

Originally posted by manimtired:
sorry…its an interesting editorial.
and im sure a lot of leftist would run to see a movie about the clinton administration put out by sean hannity.

He's a conservative talking head with a show on Fox News Channel, a radio show and has published a couple of books.

Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Who is Sean Hannity?

Originally posted by chimbly sweep:

In that case, I would recommend the more cerebral film on the war, "Control Room." By the director of startup.com, it's a great film that looks at media coverage of the war inside Iraq, comparing Al Jazeera to US stations. It's far less biased but still leaves a strong impression. [/QB]

I had read about this in the paper and forgot all about it. Thanks for the reminder……Sorry this post was about four hours late but some of us got busy at work.

im sure you'd find nazi propaganda films equally as impressive and thought provoking…

Originally posted by manimtired:
you went and saw a movie that has a complete bias thats not based on facts…and that changed your mind. wonderful.

This claim contends that there are no facts in the movie at all. Every movie/documentary/article/news program has some bias. And while there may be debates over a handful of facts included in Moore's film, you cannot claim that there is no truth in it.

By the way, I haven't seen the movie, and am making no claims either way, but have read enough to know that there are facts, both verified and in dispute. Moore is making a point with his film.

From the editorial you cite:

In fact, of course, Mr. Bush did stretch the truth. The run-up to Iraq was all about exaggerations, but not flat-out lies.

[The administration] deceived themselves along with the public â?? a more common problem in government than flat-out lying.

The writer doesn't like the *way* Moore makes his point (he is, after all, aping tactics perfected by conservatives over the past 15 years).

Mr. Bush got us into a mess by overdosing on moral clarity and self-righteousness, and embracing conspiracy theories of like-minded zealots. How sad that many liberals now seem intent on making the same mistakes.

Quite frankly, I was getting bored by the end of this movie. I'm on Moore's side, but the movie is SO biased, it's hard to know what to take as fact and what to take as him manipulating the facts to make his point.

A good example of this is the montage of the happy-go-lucky Iraqis before the US invaded…I mean liberated them. Children playing…happily riding bicycles…women walking around town…going out to dinner, etc. You'd think they were all on holiday or something. Look how cheery and happy the Iraqi people were before the US arrived. I'm on his side, and even I rolled my eyes at that.

The best thing this movie does is make people think and ask questions. I find it hard to believe that even Republicans are going to walk out of this movie without questioning at least some of the administration's actions or relationships. But I would also hope most people on the left don't take everything Moore presents as irrefutable truth.

Originally posted by manimtired:
you went and saw a movie that has a complete bias thats not based on facts…and that changed your mind. wonderful.

Could you please talk about one or two facts that were invalid? I'm curious to hear them, in a non-partisan way.

Like Skeeter said…

I find it hard to believe that the Iraqi people were all so happy under the Saddam regime, as depicted by Moore. That wasn't really an accurate protrayal.

Originally posted by redsock:

Originally posted by manimtired:
you went and saw a movie that has a complete bias thats not based on facts…and that changed your mind. wonderful.

Could you please talk about one or two facts that were invalid? I'm curious to hear them, in a non-partisan way.

i havent seen the movie but from what ive heard on the news and in the papers…
moore claimes:
bush gave the orders to allow for members of bin ladens family and other saudies to leave the country after 9/11 when planes werent allowed to fly..
his body weight on the promo poster…

Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Like Skeeter said…

I find it hard to believe that the Iraqi people were all so happy under the Saddam regime, as depicted by Moore. That wasn't really an accurate protrayal.

Originally posted by redsock:

Originally posted by manimtired:
you went and saw a movie that has a complete bias thats not based on facts…and that changed your mind. wonderful.

Could you please talk about one or two facts that were invalid? I'm curious to hear them, in a non-partisan way.

Except that's hardly a fact. He showed us a lot of burned out houses in Flint, doesn't mean every house looks like that. Obviously those images were not telling the whole story, but anyone with enough intellgience to want to see this movie should be understanding of that. I'm assuming our republican comrade has some real information to disprove some of the facts Moore presented us with. As in No, the Saudis were not allowed to fly out of the country while everyone else was frozen, and here's some facts to back it up….

Originally posted by manimtired:
i havent seen the movie but from what ive heard on the news and in the papers…
moore claimes:
bush gave the orders to allow for members of bin ladens family and other saudies to leave the country after 9/11 when planes werent allowed to fly..
his body weight on the promo poster…

No, Moore has a member of congress, I think, saying that the order to have those people flown out had to come from someone very high up in the administration. He never said it was Bush.

but didnt the saudies haul ass after the plane freeze was over…the 14th i believe.

Originally posted by manimtired:
but didnt the saudies haul ass after the plane freeze was over…the 14th i believe.

There were flight listings that show flights on the 13th from Kennedy to Saudi Arabia. Now, no way of me verifying what he was showing on camera was true, but has anyone from the administration actually come out and said those are false? And no, Fox News doesn't count…

i actually heard it disclaimed on MSNBC…but that might be too right wing as well.

Acutally, the Saudis flew out on 9/13, I think…and air travel HAD resumed for most folks by then. This is a fact clarified in a USA Today article, even by Moore's co-producer. They admitted the facts were blurred a bit here. This, to me, is not the issue, though, that they were allowed to fly before other people, but that they were allowed to fly AT ALL without being questioned by the FBI.

The Bush family's ties to Saudis and oil interests and the fact that dumb, desperate working class people are actively recruited for the military are the most compelling things in the film that I saw, and those ARE facts.

Originally posted by manimtired:
i actually heard it disclaimed on MSNBC…but that might be too right wing as well.

Might be. What did they say about it?

Riiight, because the media isn't biased at all. But that's free, so you accept it, right?

Originally posted by manimtired:
i havent seen the movie but from what ive heard on the news and in the papers…

You want to get into the music business? Join the Marines. You've heard of Shaggy, right? Shaggy was a US Marine.

there is a definate bias both ways….
but the comparison that the news is as biased as moore is a stretch.