Venerable Bede
Joined: October 16, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 3863
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:16 PM UTC
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Originally posted by chaz:
I think it's so sad the way the working and middle class have been mesmerized by bush's tax cuts. They think he's on their side by lowering taxes for them, but don't they realize that 50% of the tax cuts bush has made go right into the pockets of the richest 1-2% of Americans?
One other thing…duh…if you lower taxes it's generally a good idea to reduce government spending, not increase it!
well, for example. . .if you made $50,000 a year and i made $1,000,000 a year, and congress lowered taxes at a flat 10%, your taxes would be lowered by $5,000 and mine would be lowered by $100,000. . .by saying the richest recieve the benefits in mis-leading. . they get the biggest deduction because they make the most money, and have a bigger pie to take from, as the above illustrates.
btw, i agree. . .government should be cutting spending and programs in order to make the budget balanced in the wake of tax cuts. . .you'll hear no argument on that part from me.
Doctor Doom
Joined: April 23, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 3745
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:33 PM UTC
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Kerry may be a letdown in some ways, though I think he's better than he's made out to be. But the bottom line is that anyone who votes for Bush is a freakin' idiot. There's simply no way around that.
sonickteam2
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:40 PM UTC
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i think the bottom line is a Bush is a drooling idiot. Not the kind of guy i would want to talk to me on the street, have over for dinner, my friends to see me with, or anything else!
he's just WIERD. and i know my vote doesnt matter, but can you really look at Bush and think, "leader" lol, i dont see how.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:42 PM UTC
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by chaz:
I think it's so sad the way the working and middle class have been mesmerized by bush's tax cuts. They think he's on their side by lowering taxes for them, but don't they realize that 50% of the tax cuts bush has made go right into the pockets of the richest 1-2% of Americans?
Would that be the same 1-2% that pay 50% of income taxes?
But it doesn't really work that way does it?
Before EGTRRA (bush's 2001 tax cut) the percentage of federal tax paid the top 1% (who average like $1.1 million) year was 19%, while american families bringing home a total of between $73k and $97k paid 25% of their income to the feds. And that's
before bush's tax cuts.
After EGTRAA the federal tax payment made by the top 1% went down by 12.5% while the 73-97k groups payment went down by only 7%.
So what wasn't fair to begin with was made even less fair by this administration.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:44 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
well, for example. . .if you made $50,000 a year and i made $1,000,000 a year, and congress lowered taxes at a flat 10%, your taxes would be lowered by $5,000 and mine would be lowered by $100,000. . .by saying the richest recieve the benefits in mis-leading. . they get the biggest deduction because they make the most money, and have a bigger pie to take from, as the above illustrates.
[/QB]
Do you really think it's this simple?
*News-Flash* We don't have a flat tax in this country.
Venerable Bede
Joined: October 16, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 3863
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 04:58 PM UTC
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Originally posted by chaz:
Do you really think it's this simple?
*News-Flash* We don't have a flat tax in this country.
i don't believe i ever said anything about a flat tax. . .you merely mentioned how tax cuts benefit the rich, and i pointed out that that's obvious since the rich make more money and have more money that can be taken away or given back to them.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 05:10 PM UTC
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Source?
Originally posted by chaz:
But it doesn't really work that way does it?
Before EGTRRA (bush's 2001 tax cut) the percentage of federal tax paid the top 1% (who average like $1.1 million) year was 19%, while american families bringing home a total of between $73k and $97k paid 25% of their income to the feds. And that's before bush's tax cuts.
After EGTRAA the federal tax payment made by the top 1% went down by 12.5% while the 73-97k groups payment went down by only 7%.
So what wasn't fair to begin with was made even less fair by this administration.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:04 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by chaz:
Do you really think it's this simple?
*News-Flash* We don't have a flat tax in this country.
i don't believe i ever said anything about a flat tax. . .you merely mentioned how tax cuts benefit the rich, and i pointed out that that's obvious since the rich make more money and have more money that can be taken away or given back to them.
Yes but the in the example you gave the guy who makes $1,000,000 was taxed at the same rate as the guy who makes $50,000 (hence my use of the term flat tax). The point is that the rich are taxed at a lower rate than the rest of us. Your example implies otherwise.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:05 PM UTC
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http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=220 Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Source?
Originally posted by chaz:
But it doesn't really work that way does it?
Before EGTRRA (bush's 2001 tax cut) the percentage of federal tax paid the top 1% (who average like $1.1 million) year was 19%, while american families bringing home a total of between $73k and $97k paid 25% of their income to the feds. And that's before bush's tax cuts.
After EGTRAA the federal tax payment made by the top 1% went down by 12.5% while the 73-97k groups payment went down by only 7%.
So what wasn't fair to begin with was made even less fair by this administration.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:07 PM UTC
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Originally posted by chaz:
The point is that the rich are taxed at a lower rate than the rest of us.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/rates.html
Celeste
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:14 PM UTC
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isn't there more to the picture than just income tax…weren't capital gains taxes decreased?
thirsty moore
Joined: January 11, 2000 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 6131
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:15 PM UTC
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Flawd, I took the pic down because it took up the whole screen.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:27 PM UTC
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The numbers on the link below are nowhere near what you cited.
Also, this doesn't tell you anything about why the numbers changed. Was it the effect of the Bush tax cut? Was it capital losses? Was it better tax-advantaged investment planning?
Originally posted by chaz:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=220
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:34 PM UTC
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
The numbers on the link below are nowhere near what you cited.
Be more specific please….
Any way, my origional point is this - 50% of the tax cuts put in place by bush have benefited the top 1% of taxpayers. The top 1% of taxpayers foot 25% of the total tax bill. How can you spin that to make me believe it is fair?
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:36 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
well, for example. . .if you made $50,000 a year and i made $1,000,000 a year, and congress lowered taxes at a flat 10%, your taxes would be lowered by $5,000 and mine would be lowered by $100,000. . .by saying the richest recieve the benefits in mis-leading. . they get the biggest deduction because they make the most money, and have a bigger pie to take from, as the above illustrates.
It's such a misnomer to talk about flat tax reductions. That's not what happened, there's a labyrinth of tax reform and changes that
disproportionatly benefit the extremely wealthy.
And, Chaz made the key point. If you reduce taxes, you have to reduce spending
in areas that don't impact/cost those you just "gave" their taxes back to (thereby nullifying the tax cut), for instance on social and locality services (no, not welfare, but the administration of local government, local services, local law enforcement/fire/highway & transportation budgets, etc).
-edit- Hadn't read down and read all chaz's answers yet.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:42 PM UTC
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PS, thanks Thirsty for taking the picture off.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:43 PM UTC
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Hallelujah Bags! Well put indeed.
What does GGW stand for anyhow…"Go Go W"? ;)
Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
It's such a misnomer to talk about flat tax reductions. That's not what happened, there's a labyrinth of tax reform and changes that disproportionatly benefit the extremely wealthy.
And, Chaz made the key point. If you reduce taxes, you have to reduce spending in areas that don't impact/cost those you just "gave" their taxes back to (thereby nullifying the tax cut), for instance on social and locality services (no, not welfare, but the administration of local government, local services, local law enforcement/fire/highway & transportation budgets, etc). [/QB]
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: kerry's speech thingy...
July 30, 2004 at 06:52 PM UTC
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Originally posted by chaz:
Be more specific please….
The numbers you supplied don't show that the top 1% were ever paying 19%. They were paying 25.9% and that is now 24.9%
Also, this statement:
the federal tax payment made by the top 1% went down by 12.5% while the 73-97k groups payment went down by only 7%.
…is fuzzy math. The dollar amount paid may have fallen by 12.5%, but that says nothing about how far the dollar base upon which those taxes were paid may have fallen. Again, as a percentage of total federal tax, the fall was 1%, not 12.5%.
Originally posted by chaz:
Any way, my origional point is this - 50% of the tax cuts put in place by bush have benefited the top 1% of taxpayers.
Where are you coming up with this?
Originally posted by chaz:
The top 1% of taxpayers foot 25% of the total tax bill. How can you spin that to make me believe it is fair?
Do you mean that it is unfair that those that earn only 19% of the income pay 25% of the taxes?