The Walkmen. Bad audio. Who is to blame?

I was told I should check this thread out.

First, Twangirl is in the know. She is omnipotent as far as the 9:30 is concerned. As to the way things can go wrong with sound, I can give you another 20 if you would like, 30 if I spend some time thinking. Pretty much, anything and everything can and will go wrong, and there is so much going on that you can not have 100% confidence that everything will work right every night. Bands and their crews are well aware of this and deal with it. Why do you think they have spare guitars, snares, and amps?

Here is the path from his microphone to the FOH board at the 9:30:

Mic
cable
sub-snake
patch panel/splitter
house snake
FOH

Not that simple a path, and often the cables are reused and just patched down at the splitter so if that has not been changed then you get no vocals (or whatever was in that channel). Sometimes you can quickly find the channel that the mispatched line is coming out and run it there until you correct the problem. To keep this from happening you often will see a line check before the band comes out. And even then something can go wrong in that 5 minutes. Since it was not a patch problem, all you can do is find the problem and fix it ASAP. Not an easy thing to do.

I work sound at the 9:30 on occasion (was not there that night), and wonder what you mean by vocals lost in a sea of garbled sound and the bass so high or low, blah blah blah. What shows was this the case at, what vocals, when? Details are needed if you wish the problem to be fixed. For all I know you were standing in the one spot that sucks (right against the stage), and there is nothing anyone can do to fix the problem. So, give some information and we can see what the problem might be and how to correct it.

That said, many times it is the engineers with the bands, and sometimes their whole PA that is in the club. We do very little with the actual sound those nights, and still people will bitch that we did something wrong.

I have seen many a show in many a dump with a sound system crappier than my computer speakers. Far and away, the 930 sound is the best I've heard, and I can't remember the last time I commented badly on the sound there. i'm sure I have, but since I don't remember, it obviously wasn't that bad. Go bitch someplace else…they had some problems, get over it. Catch 'em again the next time they're in town. Jeez…

And Twangirl wasn't trying to start something with you, she was just trying to tell you the straight deal, and in her own way, to stop bitching. No need to cop an attitude just cause you missed two songs.

One of the differences between great bands and crappy ones is how they handle the situation during equipment failures, which happen to all of them at some point.

Peter Murphy lost all the sound apart from his microphone one time I saw him…he looked really ruffled but simply picked up an accoustic guitar and kept going 'unplugged' until it could be fixed then once it was, just apologized but said everything is back online and continued the show….a professional way to handle it.

The Waterboys at 930 lost the amplification for the fiddle last time they played the 930. Mike Scott simply made a joke about it can't be the Waterboys without a fiddler then they took a moment to sort the problem out while Mike Scott chatted to the crowd….another professional way to handle it.

Shit happens, it's how they handle the shit that happens that makes the difference to me.

I think 9:30 should implement a $$ back guarantee policy on all ticket purchases. Don't all venues have something like that?

I want my money back!

Originally posted by chaz:
I think 9:30 should implement a $$ back guarantee policy on all ticket purchases. Don't all venues have something like that?

I want my money back!

But should it be pro-rated based on the portion of the show you watched? To be safe they will have you wait by the window outside until the show is over so that they can calculate what percent you watched.

Originally posted by chaz:
I think 9:30 should implement a $$ back guarantee policy on all ticket purchases. Don't all venues have something like that?

I want my money back!

No offense but that's stupid.

That's like saying if the band don't play your favorite song you want a refund, or if you go to a sporting event and your favorite team loses you want your money back.

If you don't want the chances of something going wrong at a LIVE PERFORMANCE, then stay home and watch MTV.

It's LIVE that's part of the experience of a live performance.

Originally posted by mankie:

Originally posted by chaz:
I think 9:30 should implement a $$ back guarantee policy on all ticket purchases. Don't all venues have something like that?

I want my money back!

No offense but that's stupid.

That's like saying if the band don't play your favorite song you want a refund, or if you go to a sporting event and your favorite team loses you want your money back.

If you don't want the chances of something going wrong at a LIVE PERFORMANCE, then stay home and watch MTV.

It's LIVE that's part of the experience of a live performance.

I think chaz was kidding. Or at least I hope he was.

Originally posted by redsock:

I think chaz was kidding. Or at least I hope he was. [/QB]

With a name like Chaz…you can never be sure.
;)

Originally posted by mankie:
One of the differences between great bands and crappy ones is how they handle the situation during equipment failures, which happen to all of them at some point.

This reminds me of when I saw T-Bone Burnett on F St. in the late 80s. He was solo acoustic. As he tried to play there was a loud thump that repeated unrhythmically. It threw him off completely, as it would just about anybody. He unplugged and leaned from the stage as far as he could over the crowd and played. He never left the stage while the sound was fixed.

Also, I heard a U2 bootleg on which the sequencer at the beginning of "Bad" ragged out. Bono said "Oh, that's really bad…" He then told a joke while it was fixed (no, I don't remember the joke).

Another professional response: the PA went out at a Replacements show at the Tower Theater in Philly, so the band just turned the monitors around to face the audience and played two quieter songs (Nightclub Jitters and Cruella de Ville) until the problem was fixed. And then Paul invited the audience to get a drink with the band at Brownie's, a bar down the street, after the show.

Yes…just kidding.

Oh how I wish I was there to see 5019 ask for a refund.

"I demand a full refund!"

"No refunds."

"Well then I want to complain to The Manager!"

"Post you complaints on The Forum."

5019, I hope your visit with us has been illuminating.

Originally posted by redsock:

Originally posted by mankie:

Originally posted by chaz:
I think 9:30 should implement a $$ back guarantee policy on all ticket purchases. Don't all venues have something like that?

I want my money back!

No offense but that's stupid.

That's like saying if the band don't play your favorite song you want a refund, or if you go to a sporting event and your favorite team loses you want your money back.

If you don't want the chances of something going wrong at a LIVE PERFORMANCE, then stay home and watch MTV.

It's LIVE that's part of the experience of a live performance.

I think chaz was kidding. Or at least I hope he was.

since you guys are talkin about sound…can someone explain the difference between nation's sound and 930's sound. i like the 930 club alot better of course, ive seen prob 20-30 shows there and around 7 at nation…anyway, the one complaint i always have with 930 is it seems to never be loud enough. and nation, sometimes is too loud, but usually it's just loud enough. maybe it's b/c i play the drums and listen to music loudly, but is there anybody else that thinks 930 needs to turn that shit up a little bit?

Originally posted by jakez468:
since you guys are talkin about sound…can someone explain the difference between nation's sound and 930's sound. i like the 930 club alot better of course, ive seen prob 20-30 shows there and around 7 at nation…anyway, the one complaint i always have with 930 is it seems to never be loud enough. and nation, sometimes is too loud, but usually it's just loud enough. maybe it's b/c i play the drums and listen to music loudly, but is there anybody else that thinks 930 needs to turn that shit up a little bit?

Nope, not me. (I'm a wuss I know.)

Guess you've never seen Motorhead here Jake. And there's plenty of other bands that play exceptionally loudly when they're here.

As Sir HC has previously mentioned, 9 times out of 10 the bands have their own sound engineers, and sometimes they bring in their own PA systems too. The volume of a show is largely determined by the band's volume level coming off the stage, and what their engineer does with it. Also, if a show is very crowded, the audience absorbs soundwaves, whereas if a show is sparsely attended, there are more places for the soundwaves to bounce around, so it sounds louder.

Originally posted by jakez468:
since you guys are talkin about sound…can someone explain the difference between nation's sound and 930's sound. i like the 930 club alot better of course, ive seen prob 20-30 shows there and around 7 at nation…anyway, the one complaint i always have with 930 is it seems to never be loud enough. and nation, sometimes is too loud, but usually it's just loud enough. maybe it's b/c i play the drums and listen to music loudly, but is there anybody else that thinks 930 needs to turn that shit up a little bit?

I haven't seen a rock concert at Nation in ages, but know that their sound system is biased for that rave culture and the insane volumes for that. 9:30 as a club venue doesn't go for the deep stadium bass (below 30 Hz) and can get exceedingly loud (come to the Crystal Method show and say it is not loud). Still I would say that part of the reason that it sounds better is that it isn't as loud. I find that as you get louder the ears start to compress and distort the sound. It becomes a wash of noise. Now as a drummer you might have a bit more damage than most so things would seem a bit quieter than for the rest of us.

Still in general, for clubs when I mix, I watch the crowd and if they are too busy talking I will kick it up a notch, if they are covering their ears or backing away from the front I will turn it down. If they are really enjoying it, I leave the level where it is.

Another thing to remember is different engineers have different mixing styles, it is funny to see the same band come around with someone different at the board and their sound changes.

I would also say that Nation might have more power, but then again it is a bigger room.

Good points…I guess it does vary from show to show. Fatboy slim was adequately loud, and hot hot heat was a bit quite. I will be at the TCM show, love them. Are they gonna be in the center of the crowd, or the stage?

Originally posted by jakez468:
Good points…I guess it does vary from show to show. Fatboy slim was adequately loud, and hot hot heat was a bit quite. I will be at the TCM show, love them. Are they gonna be in the center of the crowd, or the stage?

Both times they have been there before they were on the main stage as they constantly are bringing synths on and off stage. This is not their DJ gig but their real music show. Their sound man also works for Hatebreed (at least some tours) and is exceptionally loud.

if the vocals and bass can't be heard, the show should be stopped. that's just common sense.

Some of the loudest shows I've ever seen?

Beastie Boys w/L7 in 1992 @ Aragon Ballroom, Chicago
Sugar in 1993 @ Aragon
Oasis in 1993 @ 9:30 (their first tour)
Filter in 2000 @ 9:30

I missed Dinosaur jr. but heard they often topped out around 130db, much like Sugar. Some shows you can literally feel the music IN you…other times the sound coming out of the PA is like a gentle breeze. Glad I started wearing earplugs after that Beasties show.

Originally posted by bunnyman:
I missed Dinosaur jr. but heard they often topped out around 130db,

I saw Dinosaur at the old club. Definitely the loudest show I've ever seen. Painful, but awesome show. The Ramones at the Wax Museum (7/1/84) was probably second loudest. I seem to recall Gumball at the old club being crazy loud too. My loudest show at the new 9:30 was probably The Cramps (11/11/97).