Rhett Miller
Joined: November 15, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 17762
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:08 PM UTC
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Let me steal a line from the pro-choice people (of which I am one)
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up and let the rest of us exercise our choice for marriage. In general, marriage is a stabilizing force in society, and the government SHOULD reward married people for this.
Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
AAAARRRRGH! Freedom to marry. Bleh.
How about this? How about Freedom NOT to marry? How about what the hell is the government doing in the business of marriage anyway? How about marriage laws all discriminate against single people? How about THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE SANCTIONING MARRIAGE!
Let's do away with marriage licenses. Wanna get married? Do it between yourself, your partner, and your loved ones. Why should the general public need to be involved?
(end angry feminist rant)
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:10 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
[QB] If you're against marriage, don't have one.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up and let the rest of us exercise our choice for marriage. In general, marriage is a stabilizing force in society, and the government SHOULD reward married people for this.
Umm, that makes perfect sense to me.
chaz
Joined: December 09, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5111
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:13 PM UTC
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Oh my God, you're gay? That's the last time I ever post of this board! ;)
Well I'm just a square-o straight white married american male, but I agree with you %100.
Originally posted by bunnyman:
As a gay man, I really don't give a damn whether or not it is called marriage. But I feel like I am discriminated against because the person I choose to care about is the same sex as me. The current government (let's face it) does NOT favor dregs of society…and that includes gay people. (Not that I think gay people are dregs of society…just insert sarcasm there.) Generally, yes, marriage is a fucked up institution. I see it around me all the time (my own parents are proof). But I don't want to do things they way they did, and that doesn't mean that as a gay man I still cannot stand up for other people like me who DO love each other and want the same benefits and legal perks that straight married folks get. Besides, this is just a rock'n'roll show. It would be great to see as many of you as possible show up to this gig. It would mean a lot to me and the folks that put this together. I am trying to help them get the word out. I know it's a lot of dough to fork over, but I really think it will be a great evening and Henry Rollins is always a hoot. You can count on some great performances by Morel and Bob Mould, not to mention Sandra.
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:26 PM UTC
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Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
Rhett, are you just trying to get my goat this week? Cuz I already sold the goat for a 6 pack of schlitz.
Why do you think what Rhett said is unreasonable and how does it have anything to do with feminism?
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:30 PM UTC
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Well, if we go by
this article, it wouldn't really make a difference if he were poor and uninsured.
Originally posted by mark e smith:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
If Bill Clinton lived in Canada, it would have taken him 39 days to get the bypass surgery he got in three days in the U.S.
But if Clinton were poor and had no health insurance how long would it have taken him to get bypass surgery?
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:33 PM UTC
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I would not take this line as being entirely positive
"Still, one of every four patients in the city who require these procedures fail to get them, particularly if they initiate care at hospitals that offer diagnostic coronary services such as angiograms but that do not perform revascularizations."
Rhett Miller
Joined: November 15, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 17762
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:36 PM UTC
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I would love to have a goat, if we had more land.
By the way, thanks for the advice on hair salons. Went and got a great haircut yesterday. So good, I think it will strengthen my marriage.
Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Let me steal a line from the pro-choice people (of which I am one)
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up and let the rest of us exercise our choice for marriage. In general, marriage is a stabilizing force in society, and the government SHOULD reward married people for this.
Rhett, are you just trying to get my goat this week? Cuz I already sold the goat for a 6 pack of schlitz.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:41 PM UTC
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Yes, but the failure is in the utilization not in the availability of these services.
Originally posted by mark e smith:
I would not take this line as being entirely positive
"Still, one of every four patients in the city who require these procedures fail to get them, particularly if they initiate care at hospitals that offer diagnostic coronary services such as angiograms but that do not perform revascularizations."
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:45 PM UTC
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Yes, but the failure is in the utilization not in the availability of these services.
But reading between the lines…..
when people had to switch hospitals, did the new hospital deny to take people without coverage?
Also, clearly, this is going on in an area with over-capacity for such operations, is it like that in the rest of the country?
I might have to accuse you of being disingenuous soon.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:55 PM UTC
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It is illegal to deny treatment for lack of coverage.
Why is it clear that there is overcapacity?
Originally posted by mark e smith:
when people had to switch hospitals, did the new hospital deny to take people without coverage?
Also, clearly, this is going on in an area with over-capacity for such operations, is it like that in the rest of the country?
I might have to accuse you of being disingenuous soon.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 08:58 PM UTC
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(1) That's from the Cato Institute (to which the Fraser Institute in Canada is basically a sister organization – libertarians). I'll heed their research when you heed that of the New Republic or Michael Moore.
(2) Do we know Clinton needed his surgery overnight? I'd say….no. He did not have a heart attack.
(3) Any chance he was scheduled for surgery that was not an emergency overnight because he's a former president? Just a guess, it could have played a role.
We've been through this before. Gold-plated care for some comes at the denial of any care for others. I'm finished on this, cuz we'll never agree. Which is fine. I am blessed with really excellent, corporately-funded healthcare. Hope I don't lose my job.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
If Bill Clinton lived in Canada, it would have taken him 39 days to get the bypass surgery he got in three days in the U.S.
Originally posted by Bags:
I never said take health care away. But don't get me started on health care. It should be FAR easier to get/deal with. I should probably live in Canada.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:01 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
"If you're for marriage, have one." Oh, except you and you and you and you. You're not allowed, because I don't believe in it for you (even though it's a stabilizing institution…).
You're arguing the converse of the point of the WEDrock benefit.
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:03 PM UTC
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
It is illegal to deny treatment for lack of coverage.
Why is it clear that there is overcapacity?
[/QB]
I know someone who was in the operating theatre about to get a gall stone operation, they found out she didnt have insurance and cancelled the op….
I think I made that up, probably mis-interpreting:
"BUT CITY'S UNDERUSE RATE FOR BYPASS SURGERY AND ANGIOPLASTY IS SUBSTANTIAL"
clearly that means more patients should get the treatment, not that there is overcapacity. I am not very familiar with this foreign language. Sorry.
markie
Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 13178
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:06 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
"If you're for marriage, have one." Oh, except you and you and you and you. You're not allowed, because I don't believe in it for you (even though it's a stabilizing institution…).
You're arguing the converse of the point of the WEDrock benefit.
I think you just put words in Rhetts mouth.
I took what he said differently to you, but my comprehension is poor today.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:06 PM UTC
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Originally posted by bunnyman:
Besides, this is just a rock'n'roll show. It would be great to see as many of you as possible show up to this gig. It would mean a lot to me and the folks that put this together. I am trying to help them get the word out.
Bunnyman, you're involved in this event? That is awesomely cool, and in fact a greater reason for me to attend (wasn't planning on it, but it would be a good show….)
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:07 PM UTC
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And that is the big fallacy of the healthcare debate.
Nationalized healthcare does not mean that the current healthcare system is extended to everybody. It means that medical care is rationed and everybody shares a lower quality of care.
And, as I pointed out to Markie, one cannot be denied medical services due to lack of insurance coverage. I've personally got $40,000 in medical bills to prove that.
Originally posted by Bags:
We've been through this before. Gold-plated care for some comes at the denial of any care for others.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:09 PM UTC
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I interpret that to mean that those in the city who would benefit from the surgery did not always use it, as the article pointed out. I certainly don't think that meant that there were teams of cardiac surgeons twiddling their thumbs while waiting for patients.
Originally posted by mark e smith:
"BUT CITY'S UNDERUSE RATE FOR BYPASS SURGERY AND ANGIOPLASTY IS SUBSTANTIAL"
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:12 PM UTC
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I don't think I did put words in Rhett's mouth…he's defending his right to get married. He said, "Otherwise, shut the fuck up and let the rest of us exercise our choice for marriage."
That's fine. That's not in question.
The issue is that some want that same right and don't have it. Hence, "If you want to get married, get married" rather than "If you don't want to get married, don't get married." Everyone has the ability *not* to get married (the negative), some don't have the right to get married (the affirmative).
He's arguing/defending the flip-side of the argument (though I think it comes from Chimbley's "fuck marriage" rant, but in the context of the thread and the event, his right to being married isn't an issue).
Originally posted by mark e smith:
Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
"If you're for marriage, have one." Oh, except you and you and you and you. You're not allowed, because I don't believe in it for you (even though it's a stabilizing institution…).
You're arguing the converse of the point of the WEDrock benefit.
I think you just put words in Rhetts mouth.
I took what he said differently to you, but my comprehension is poor today.
Rhett Miller
Joined: November 15, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 17762
Re: Wed Rock (feat. Rollins, Mould, Bernhardt, etc.)
September 10, 2004 at 09:12 PM UTC
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I was arguing against Chimbley's argument to do away with the institution of marriage.
I would like to see gays and lesbians have the same rights to get married and get the same benefits from marriage that I do.
Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
If you're against marriage, don't have one.
"If you're for marriage, have one." Oh, except you and you and you and you. You're not allowed, because I don't believe in it for you (even though it's a stabilizing institution…).
You're arguing the converse of the point of the WEDrock benefit.