gavroche
Joined: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM UTC
Posts: 512
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 03:15 PM UTC
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side-KNEEL wrote:
I guess 'reduce Police budgets and move to social services' doesn't sound as catchy as Defund the Police
It also means remaking what the police force is though. Getting rid of qualified immunity and the power of the Union to stop officers from being fired for misconduct. Fundamentally changing the responsiveness of the police force to city officials. That part isn't capture as much in the reduce the budget formulation.
hutch
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 03:40 PM UTC
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Well Minneapolis is talking about eliminating its police department period
I have read accounts that talk about replacing the police with community organizations etc
I think many of the people talking about defunding the police mean eliminating it altogether
How exactly would this work? If someone is murdered is the police replacement meant to respond as quickly or because they have no funding do they begin investigation in three weeks?
What if god forbid there is a mass shooting? Who responds?
Let’s not even talk about the implications for the general election
I can’t imagine any democrat winning on this platform so do we think Trump and Barr will do nothing in response to this movement once they win on a don’t defund the police platform?
Yada
Joined: February 05, 2003 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 12418
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 03:43 PM UTC
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hutch wrote:
Well Minneapolis is talking about eliminating its police department period
I have read accounts that talk about replacing the police with community organizations etc
I think many of the people talking about defunding the police mean eliminating it altogether
How exactly would this work? If someone is murdered is the police replacement meant to respond as quickly or because they have no funding do they begin investigation in three weeks?
What if god forbid there is a mass shooting? Who responds?
Let’s not even talk about the implications for the general election
I can’t imagine any democrat winning on this platform so do we think Trump and Barr will do nothing in response to this movement once they win on a don’t defund the police platform?
https://forum.930.com/index.php?topic=25374.msg503090#msg503090
Yada
Joined: February 05, 2003 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 12418
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 03:46 PM UTC
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hutch wrote:
I addressed that Yada
Getting rid of police for good is as easy as getting rid of systemic racism for good. It's not happening. The city of Minneapolis will still have some sort of a police department when this is all said and done.
Sidehatch
Joined: October 04, 2011 at 04:33 AM UTC
Posts: 25687
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 03:50 PM UTC
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I think what has happened in the last few decades is the police budgets went up a crazy amount due to the 'war on drugs' and 'get tough on crime' and that money is not really being effectively being used to stop crime (before it starts)
we still need the police and the courts of course
I do think it's like a 'build a wall' like statement, it fits on a bumper sticker
So I think the biggest issue lies in that we have 18K different police departments that are all independent organizations and don't answer to a central federal government
there are some good checks and balances why that is a good way to operate
but makes it insanely complicated on how we'd get comprehensive reform
hutch
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 04:00 PM UTC
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Well I hate the cops more than the next guy but seems pretty complicated
Still…am into the idea of changing the police
gavroche
Joined: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM UTC
Posts: 512
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 04:04 PM UTC
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hutch wrote:
Well I hate the cops more than the next guy but seems pretty complicated
Still…am into the idea of changing the police
I think Camden is the model that people are looking to:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/protests/stopping-systemic-racism-in-police-departments-protests/65-c8f377a4-c2d4-4659-86e0-3fd13ec3dbc2 or here:
https://www.newsweek.com/minneapolis-not-first-disband-police-department-1509327The idea isn't that we don't need any law enforcement (at least for most people), the idea is that the current system is so broken that you need to start over.
StoneTheCrow
Joined: January 05, 2006 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 2297
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 04:08 PM UTC
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hutch wrote:
Defunding the police?
I am kind of unclear how this works but willing to learn..
I don’t get it entirely, either. Should changes be made? Probably. Very carefully, though.
kosmo
Joined: September 23, 1999 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 16329
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 04:14 PM UTC
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Haven't seen it yet, but John Oliver apparently did a good job with this last night
https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY
sweetcell
Joined: July 18, 2006 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 22608
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 04:24 PM UTC
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kosmo wrote:
Haven't seen it yet, but John Oliver apparently did a good job with this last night
https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY
dammit kosmo, i was about to post that… made it to the last reply thinking "oh good, no one has mentioned john oliver yet"… and there you are. THANKS.
anyhoo, oliver does talk about this some at the end of
yesterday's show (a good investment of 33 minutes). the part that brought it home for me was a press conference with a police chief where he made the following point: police have become society's default means for dealing with problems that are self-imposed: lack of funding for rehab = drug problem = call the police. lack of resources for victims of domestic abuse = domestic violence[font=verdana] = call the police. lack of mental health care = all sorts of problems[/font][font=verdana] = call the police. etc. and the police are, in almost all cases, the wrong people to be dealing with these problems - but we send them anyways, because there is no one else to take care of the problem.[/font]
[font=verdana]so the thinking behind "defund the police" is to take budget away,
but also responsibilities. take some of that police money and put it towards affordable housing, expanded healthcare, more social intervention specialists, etc., so that you don't need as many police officers.[/font]
jrpa
Joined: September 03, 2013 at 03:15 PM UTC
Posts: 29999
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 05:16 PM UTC
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Yada wrote:
hutch wrote:
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?
Who writes the accident report?
defunding police doesn't = getting rid of the police.
Considering over 90% of police funding is salaries, benefits, and OT, any sort of “defunding” does equate to literally getting rid of police unless we are talking about defunding like 1% of their budget.
Which is fine, I just wish people would be honest about the reality of what they are proposing. In your “go from giving them 4 billion to only 1 billion” hypothetical, you are de facto firing most police officers en masse. Which, again, is a conversation we can have, I just think we have to call it what it is.
gavroche
Joined: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM UTC
Posts: 512
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 05:19 PM UTC
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Julian, wrote:
Yada wrote:
hutch wrote:
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?
Who writes the accident report?
defunding police doesn't = getting rid of the police.
Considering over 90% of police funding is salaries, benefits, and OT, any sort of “defunding” does equate to literally getting rid of police unless we are talking about defunding like 1% of their budget.
Which is fine, I just wish people would be honest about the reality of what they are proposing. In your “go from giving them 4 billion to only 1 billion” hypothetical, you are de facto firing most police officers en masse. Which, again, is a conversation we can have, I just think we have to call it what it is.
I think the long time BLM activists who are proposing it are actually pretty clear. It's those of us who want to be supportive, but who cannot get our heads around what the US would look like without a massive police presence, who are unclear. (And I'll put myself in that second camp for sure).
hutch
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 05:31 PM UTC
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That’s fantastic Gavroche
I assume then that there are documents and papers outlining how this would work..it’s a major undertaking but it’s good to know a lot of thought has been given to it
Can you point me to some of them?
Thanks in advance
gavroche
Joined: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM UTC
Posts: 512
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 05:43 PM UTC
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hutch
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 05:45 PM UTC
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Cool
I will start with Brookings
Thx
beetsnotbeats
Joined: April 26, 2002 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 5756
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 08, 2020 at 06:09 PM UTC
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gavroche wrote:
Here is a book: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing
N.B.: The ebook version currently free.
WALKonBack
Joined: Unknown
Posts: 0
Re: How to end systemic racism?
June 09, 2020 at 02:46 AM UTC
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e,books . . . are not a correct way of learning anything. They are fleeting without real paged archiveness. I must, say, this is the one the best threads to read, as of late on here. Real issues broken down within human emotions, and some humor added to break the silence of possible moving on and away.