Joe Strummer R.I.P. — 930 Forums

Henry Dark

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 06:30 PM UTC #

I think it takes remarkable imagination to write love songs that AREN'T conventional. One could argue that Strummer was either just playing it safe by not attempting to write any, or that he was too emotionally stunted to write about love. But probably the best argument would be that he was too busy making "important" music to bother with something as trifling as love. Quite frankly, I'd rather listen to the Clash for a week straight than endure ten seconds of a Toto song. But if you're going to make fun of the Clash, negatively somparing them to Toto is a funny way to do it. Maybe you had to be around in America when Toto was at it's peak to appreciate the joke. Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but I found it funny.

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 06:32 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: Truths in the article:1. It's quite tiresome to have anybody, critic or fan, tell me what is "musically important". If it doesn't touch my heart, then it's not musically important to me. What happens if it doesnt touch your heart, yet it touched the heart and influenced other artists you listen to? It is important beacause it influenced so many people who made more music….Plus it was the first time that governments were really scared that music could change the fabric of society and begat anarchy. It sounds stupid saying and thinking that, but its true you know? and beisdes I dont see why great music shouldnt be held in the same high esteem as say the visual arts 2. Punk rock is for teenagers. Very well put. Of course punk rock has become such an easy target these days… Punk rock is just rock and roll, if thats just for teenagers, well there are a lot of grey haired teenagers in the world, how you must be missing out. As for the clash, only the clash is pure rock and roll, subsequently they pillage a whole host of musical styles. Think of it as bringing world music to peoples attention for the forst time.3. Anybody that bashes Janeane Garofolo gets points on my scoreboard. Why? I always thought she was reasonably funny and attractive. the are a lot more people worthy of derision in the world. Or do you just not like women who are not afraid to speak there own mind? 4. HE's right. Listening to someone sing about hatred of something doesn't really bring joy to my heart. so songs about injustice, racism, and oppression dont do it for you? For me they are often the most potent. 5. We'll see how much press a legend like George Jones gets when he dies.who?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[This message has been edited by markie (edited 12-27-2002).]

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 06:38 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: One could argue that Strummer was either just playing it safe by not attempting to write any, or that he was too emotionally stunted to write about love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>there is say 1-2 crush on you. A really early clash song. But Bernie Rhodes the clash manager and Svengali encouraged them to write about what was going on around them.Multi-cultural Britain and riots make interesting topics for songs, especially after the horror of disco and prog-rock that was the 70's.

Henry Dark

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 06:46 PM UTC #

1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer. 2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics. 3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is.4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.

Yank

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 06:51 PM UTC #

Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but the next issue of Uncut Magazine is to feature Strummer and The Clash. Unless they change it because of his death, it'll be a little surreal to read the articles knowing he was alive when the issue was drafted.

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:02 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: 1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer. well when it influences people to make music, changes peoples thoughts and behaviour, then it is important.but the same good be said of the visual arts, have any of your relations heard of Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly. Just because they live in a cultural void does not stop the rest of the world going on about them. 2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics. in no clash song do they just shout angrily! I think you are thinking of heavy or thrash metal.3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is. Perhaps she is your dream woman, sounds like you would be great together4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.Well I dont know who he is, so cant comment either<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ggw

Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC

Posts: 14237

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:03 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: 1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So popularity = quality ?? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" – to paraphrase John Ruskin. Modern music like modern art requires some interaction from its audience. Generally, people would rather get the mindless enjoyment of a simple pretty picture or a simple melody than to have to engage. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know her nor am I familiar with her work. But if she is anything like you…..well…..enough said. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, you are equating popularity with quality. Please reference the Billboard top songs of all time thread: <A HREF="http://www.930.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003318.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.930.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003318.html</A>;

Celeste

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:10 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><JOKE>No, that would be abstract expressionism. </JOKE>John Ruskin was an idiot

Henry Dark

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:14 PM UTC #

So popularity = quality ?? Not necessarily, but I think that some popularity with the general mainstream is a key ingredient to being regarded as "important". Not that being important is necessarily a goal of a punk rocker and all.And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" – to paraphrase John Ruskin. Modern music like modern art requires some interaction from its audience. Generally, people would rather get the mindless enjoyment of a simple pretty picture or a simple melody than to have to engage.It is amazing what manages to pass for art these days, isn't it?… after all of the pretty pictures have already been painted.I don't know her nor am I familiar with her work. But if she is anything like you…..well…..enough said.Janeane Garofolo did once say that the Old 97's were her favorite band, so I guess she is a bit like me. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists. ——————————————————————————–Again, you are equating popularity with quality. Please reference the Billboard top songs of all time thread: I feel qualified enough to say that George Jones is the best country singer (based on his singing, not his songwriting) to have lived, in my opinion. That statment has nothnig to do with quality.

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:19 PM UTC #

the clash were popular in the US. They sold 100 000 copise of "the clash" on import in about a year and a half.that figure isnt nearly as impressive as the 5 million creed albums sold in the US last year, but the clash remains the most popular bought "on import" album in the US history.London calling was a pretty good selling album at the time. As well.perhps you were too busy listening to TOTO?

Henry Dark

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:22 PM UTC #

but the same good be said of the visual arts, have any of your relations heard of Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly. Just because they live in a cultural void does not stop the rest of the world going on about them. These names mean nothing to me. Does that mean I live in a cultural void? No, it probably means that thetre work doesn't do it for me, or I have other interests that differ from them. I'll bet most people in the world don't go on about them. Just like you don't have a clue who George Jones is…what are you living in a cultural void or something?

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:29 PM UTC #

well I know who those artists are, two of them , Kelly and Stella have multiple pieces at prominent locations in either the hirshhorn or modern art gallery. there are Ellsworth Kelly sculptures outside the hirshhorn and in the new sculpture garden.You live in a cultuaral void.George jones was famous for missing concerts and for marrying Tammy, right?

Celeste

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:30 PM UTC #

I bet alot of the general population of people have heard of the Clash because of Rock the Casbah, but maybe have not heard of Joe Strummer…til now.

Celeste

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:32 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>were you saying these names don't mean anything to you, or just making a point…who first brought these guys into the picture?

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:39 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Celeste: who first brought these guys into the picture?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>twas me.I like there work and they are all important critically acclaimed artists. I thought it would be good to bring perspective from other arts field to what is important.Incidentally as a bonus it highlighted Henrys life in the cultural void.

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:44 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark: Just like you don't have a clue who George Jones is…what are you living in a cultural void or something?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was thinking about this more….. George Jones is an American artist working in a peculiarly Americam medium. That would be a good reason not to know him. I bet most culturally aware British citizens do not know who he is.Ellsworth Kelly and Frank Stella I believe are American and work in a universally respected medium.therefore Rhett, like it or not, you live in a cultural void. Try and get out more.

Rhett Miller

Joined: November 15, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:48 PM UTC #

Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?Do you like that which is "universally respected", because, as an educated cultural human being, that is what you're SUPPOSED to like, or do you really actually like it?

ggw

Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:50 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rhett Miller: Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Relativism is dead.

Henry Dark

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Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:55 PM UTC #

Philosophy class always put me to sleep. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: Relativism is dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

markie

Joined: October 15, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC

Posts: 13178

Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P. December 27, 2002 at 07:55 PM UTC #

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rhett Miller: Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?Do you like that which is "universally respected", because, as an educated cultural human being, that is what you're SUPPOSED to like, or do you really actually like it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Country music is peculiarly American. If someone from another country tries it they normally fake an American accent to sound authentic. Country sells much better in the US than anywhere else in the world. As far as I am aware CMT only airs in the US and Canada.So Country music is a Northern American phenom as far as I am concerned. Visual arts such as painting are created, viewed, appreciated and mulled over throughout the world. Painting is universally respected.alright? As for appreciating art, well thats simple, its pretty. What is the difference between seeing a great picture from reading a good book to listening to Sandinista!?