Originally posted by the scientist:by whom the general public or bowie fans? just because he isn't sell boatloads of records doesn't mean that there are some fans out there digging his recent output.
As it happens I dont think Bowie has release an album that will be regarded as a classic for 20 years…..
Sex Pistols
Originally posted by the scientist:I'm still having trouble thinking of any great art that hasn't maintained its relevance, and yet is still considered great. Why d'you reckon Picasso's work has stuck around so long? Whether or not you think The Pistols still maintain any relevance is one thing…but arguing that great art doesn't have to? Que?
Originally posted by walkman:the first statement is a fallacy, the second is probably true.
but the mark of great art is how well it ages. Hearing Neil Young play Down By The River at 57 is inspiring…I can't imagine the same will hold true when Johnny busts out God Save the Queen.
Just because Mike Tyson or Ali are old and fucked now doesnt mean they were not two of the greatest in the ring.
Cant judge on still being able to perform. Old punks look pathetic whatever way you cut it. Sold out or pathetically trying to hang on to their youth.
I think the actual album, never mind the bollocks, still sounds as good as say the strokes or what have you, that was released 25 or so years later.
Originally posted by walkman:Whether or not you think The Pistols still maintain any relevance is one thing…but arguing that great art doesn't have to? Que? [/QB]
I can't imagine the same will hold true when Johnny busts out God Save the Queen.
No Walkman, you missed my point.
You said seeing the pistols now would probably make you laugh. I dont think that detracts from their accomplishments. Like if you met picasso today he isnt much of an artist anymore either, he is dead.
I think the pistols album stands up very well today, that is what matters, not if they look pathetic now. It is the recorded material and its effects. The concerts at the time and the clothes they wore at the time and the art it inspired at the time.
Hell, go to borders and look how many books you will find on the pistols and punk vs Neil Young. Sure there are a lot of books on nsync and shit too, but not new kids on the block. Punk has stood the test of time. But then it moulded modern culture.
What did Neil Young do again?
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:But that is true of any recording artist, isnt it? Bowie hasnt done anything legendary since Low and Heroes, has he?
by whom the general public or bowie fans? just because he isn't sell boatloads of records doesn't mean that there are some fans out there digging his recent output.
Well apart from setting up bowie.com and bowiebanc.
I think you overestimate the importance of punk, particularly in this country ,or for that matter any country OTHER THAN Britain. The hippie movement had a much more far ranging cultural impact in this country than punk EVER did, for better or for worse.
a. Neil Young had his hands in the hippie movement.
b. Neil Young served as one of the main points of inspiration for "grunge".
c. Neil Young serves as a main point of inspiration for the alt-country movement.
Hell, go to borders and look how many books you will find on the pistols and punk vs Neil Young. Sure there are a lot of books on nsync and shit too, but not new kids on the block. Punk has stood the test of time. But then it moulded modern culture.
What did Neil Young do again? [/QB]
a. Neil Young had his hands in the hippie movement.
b. Neil Young served as one of the main points of inspiration for "grunge".
c. Neil Young serves as a main point of inspiration for the alt-country movement.
Hell, go to borders and look how many books you will find on the pistols and punk vs Neil Young. Sure there are a lot of books on nsync and shit too, but not new kids on the block. Punk has stood the test of time. But then it moulded modern culture.
What did Neil Young do again? [/QB]
Originally posted by the scientist:Comparing a living Johnny Rotten to a deceased Picasso completely evades the point of my argument. The point is, in fact, that a living Picasso's art was never good for a laugh during his brilliant career, whereas Rotten is now comedy material. The thing of it is, Picasso WAS a great artist up until the day he died. That's precisely what cemented his legacy as a genius and an innovator - he never lost his touch.
No Walkman, you missed my point.
You said seeing the pistols now would probably make you laugh. I dont think that detracts from their accomplishments. Like if you met picasso today he isnt much of an artist anymore either, he is dead.
I think the pistols album stands up very well today, that is what matters, not if they look pathetic now. It is the recorded material and its effects. The concerts at the time and the clothes they wore at the time and the art it inspired at the time.
Hell, go to borders and look how many books you will find on the pistols and punk vs Neil Young. Sure there are a lot of books on nsync and shit too, but not new kids on the block. Punk has stood the test of time. But then it moulded modern culture.
What did Neil Young do again?
P.S. Neil Young did as much to pave the road for punk rock as anybody making music before 1975. He just did it with better songs.
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Kosmo, you seem to be forgetting that scientist markie wk and Rhett are the last word on music…what they say is the final word, end of story. Anyone else's opinion are irrelevant…that's just how liberals are.
by whom the general public or bowie fans? just because he isn't sell boatloads of records doesn't mean that there are some fans out there digging his recent output.
The reality is that great music is bought much less than the shite….Britney, N'sync, Limp Bizkit, WK, the list goes on. Whoever has the best marketing is who sells the most cd's, talent has nothing to do with it.
hey smackie. . you should check this out when you're in vegas:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20030718/od_nm/leisure_bambi_dc
:D
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20030718/od_nm/leisure_bambi_dc
:D
Originally posted by walkman:
The point is, in fact, that a living Picasso's art was never good for a laugh during his brilliant career, whereas Rotten is now comedy material. The thing of it is, Picasso WAS a great artist up until the day he died. That's precisely what cemented his legacy as a genius and an innovator - he never lost his touch.that is why I used the boxer example to start with, remember Tyson and Ali. Some things just look rediculous if old people do them….
P.S. Neil Young did as much to pave the road for punk rock as anybody making music before 1975. He just did it with better songs.
like riding skateboards and wearing bondage pants and pretending to be rebellious, or boxing.
I have never heard anyone suggest that Neil Young paved the way for punk before. He was a hippie, right? The punks hated hippies. They are the anithesis of punk.
Originally posted by mankie:I would contend that bowie has some of the best marketing. He is a rock superpower. When he has a new album you see posters of it everywhere, and if the singles are good they get radioplay.
Whoever has the best marketing is who sells the most cd's, talent has nothing to do with it.
From what I have seen on tele, bowie looks like he is still very good live, but none of his albums in the last 20 years have been massively influential, there were a run of albums preceeding that though that I would contend are massively influential and are still great to listen to now. Those albums were part of the zeitgeist, for want of a better word. The crrent albums are not.
I think you guys are comparing apples and oranges.
Neil Young has worked in practically every genre of modern music – folk, rock, blues, country, punk, electronic. He's been at it for going on forty years now and still creates relevant material, and has influenced countless rock, country and folk musicians.
The Sex Pistols released one seminal album and cemented their place in history by saying "fuck" (or some similarly verboten word) on the telly. They created a fashion revolution, but even the Scientist would admit they were not as influential musically as other punk bands.
Neil Young has worked in practically every genre of modern music – folk, rock, blues, country, punk, electronic. He's been at it for going on forty years now and still creates relevant material, and has influenced countless rock, country and folk musicians.
The Sex Pistols released one seminal album and cemented their place in history by saying "fuck" (or some similarly verboten word) on the telly. They created a fashion revolution, but even the Scientist would admit they were not as influential musically as other punk bands.
Originally posted by ggw:I was enjoing the comparison though. I dont know too much about Neil Young. I guess he is American as the Pistols were English.
I think you guys are comparing apples and oranges.
They created a fashion revolution, but even the Scientist would admit they were not as influential musically as other punk bands.
I disagree with your later statement. I think the pistols were THE influential punk band. Especially for the english scene. And without the English scene it is possible that the NY scene might have been forgotten by now. (I doubt it , but thats conjecture)
All of the British punk bands after the pistols were to some extent just copying the pistols, especially in their beginnings. Later on many weht on to do much better more interesting things. But copying the pistols was the initial spark.
Bernie Rhodes and the clash were just following the malcolm mclaren mobile.
I find it interesting that someone said that punk had little impact in the US…how much further from the truth could that be? We give the world the Ramones and Iggy & the Stooges, arguably the 2 founding bands of punk rock, the UK gives us back the Clash, the Sex Pistols, and a slew of other bands. We give the world Husker Du, the Replacements, and whatever else you can dish up that influenced bands like the Pixies, Jane's Addiction and Nirvana. Yeah, punk never mattered. Hippies rule!!
Originally posted by the scientist:My point is that Young was influential musically, whereas I would argue that the Sex Pistols were more influential culturally.
I disagree with your later statement. I think the pistols were THE influential punk band. Especially for the english scene. And without the English scene it is possible that the NY scene might have been forgotten by now. (I doubt it , but thats conjecture)
All of the British punk bands after the pistols were to some extent just copying the pistols, especially in their beginnings. Later on many weht on to do much better more interesting things. But copying the pistols was the initial spark.
Bernie Rhodes and the clash were just following the malcolm mclaren mobile.
Well said, GGW.
Originally posted by ggw:
I think you guys are comparing apples and oranges.
Neil Young has worked in practically every genre of modern music – folk, rock, blues, country, punk, electronic. He's been at it for going on forty years now and still creates relevant material, and has influenced countless rock, country and folk musicians.
The Sex Pistols released one seminal album and cemented their place in history by saying "fuck" (or some similarly verboten word) on the telly. They created a fashion revolution, but even the Scientist would admit they were not as influential musically as other punk bands.
Originally posted by ggw:Well If you say the attitude of punk, the do it yourself ethos, was a cultural change then maybe.
My point is that Young was influential musically, whereas I would argue that the Sex Pistols were more influential culturally.
Who did Neil Young have such a massive inluence on? I know I could look it up on allmusic, but that thing lies.
For me, let's put it this way. There was a time maybe ten years ago where I went to about six shows in a row, and every band I saw did a Neil Young cover. I have never seen anybody do a Sex Pistols cover.
Off the top of my head, i think I have seen Matthew Sweet, Slobberbone, Cracker, Lucinda Williams, the Lemonheads, EmmyLou Harris, the Jayhawks, Canyon (not bragging about that one), and Cassandra Wilson.
His songs have been covered by too many people to name, but they include David Bowie, Dolly Parton, Neil Young, Tori Amos, Paul Weller, Motorhead, the Pretenders, and the list goes on.
And last and least, he is listed as the "programmer" on Andrew WK's I Get Wet album.
Off the top of my head, i think I have seen Matthew Sweet, Slobberbone, Cracker, Lucinda Williams, the Lemonheads, EmmyLou Harris, the Jayhawks, Canyon (not bragging about that one), and Cassandra Wilson.
His songs have been covered by too many people to name, but they include David Bowie, Dolly Parton, Neil Young, Tori Amos, Paul Weller, Motorhead, the Pretenders, and the list goes on.
And last and least, he is listed as the "programmer" on Andrew WK's I Get Wet album.
Originally posted by the scientist:
Originally posted by ggw:Well If you say the attitude of punk, the do it yourself ethos, was a cultural change then maybe.
My point is that Young was influential musically, whereas I would argue that the Sex Pistols were more influential culturally.
Who did Neil Young have such a massive inluence on? I know I could look it up on allmusic, but that thing lies.
I think America has always had a do it yourself ethos. That is part and parcel what the Republican Party is built on.
Originally posted by the scientist:
Originally posted by ggw:Well If you say the attitude of punk, the do it yourself ethos, was a cultural change then maybe.
My point is that Young was influential musically, whereas I would argue that the Sex Pistols were more influential culturally.
Who did Neil Young have such a massive inluence on? I know I could look it up on allmusic, but that thing lies.
Originally posted by the scientist:Well he is the "Godfather of Grunge"
Who did Neil Young have such a massive inluence on? I know I could look it up on allmusic, but that thing lies.
If you go by allmusic, he influenced the Stooges, MC5, Nirvana and every other grunge, proto-grunge, post-grunge, alt-country, folk-rock, and proto-folk-alt-rock-grunge-country band ever.
Nirvana and Wilco are the most often cited. Nirvana were pretty big.
"Keep on rocking in the free world"
What the hell was the man thinking?
(I'm a fan of Neil Young for the record)
What the hell was the man thinking?
(I'm a fan of Neil Young for the record)