ATTN: 0930 Bboard to close for election day

Originally posted by pollard:

unfortunately for the Dems, they don't really have an identity for people to rally behind, just a label (liberals) for morons to rally against
I agree, but I think it's bigger than that.

The constitution dictates a Separation of Church & State. Yet, this President and his party are clearly aligned with the Christian Right. And they remind us every turn.

It wouldn't matter what the Democratic identity was - how do you compete with a group of people who believe in and are pushing Santa Claus?
If you're interested about reading about 'moral values' I recommend "What's the Matter with Kansas?" by Thomas Frank (the founding editor of the Baffler, for what that's worth). Over-simplifying, it basically argues that Republicans have successfully gotten people to ignore economic issues and focus on moral issues, like abortion, or same sex marriage, or teaching evolution in schools, etc.
Well yes, if you're a rich person on the Left.

Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:

I think it was that eminent political philosopher Markie who once observed that the greatest time for the Left is when the Right is in power, because the Left can then be enraged at how horrible things are under the Right and they can incessantly claim that things would be glorious if the Left were in power. Then the Left actually comes into power and proves them wrong.
Originally posted by skonster:
If you're interested about reading about 'moral values' I recommend "What's the Matter with Kansas?" by Thomas Frank (the founding editor of the Baffler, for what that's worth). Over-simplifying, it basically argues that Republicans have successfully gotten people to ignore economic issues and focus on moral issues, like abortion, or same sex marriage, or teaching evolution in schools, etc.
The ultimate in Bush's hypocrisy:

Save the fetus! Kill the teenage soldier.

"ignore economic issues and focus on moral issues, like abortion, or same sex marriage, or teaching evolution in schools,"

Each of these 'issues' are deeply rooted in RELIGION.

The more I think about this, the more I realize how much religion has played a role:

If you are a believer, you'll more blindly follow a believer - God is on our side!
Originally posted by pollard:


I wonder how much work Bush has left to do to make the world ready for Jesus' return.
Well according to the Kennedy, that was on Bill Maher's recently, he's well on the way. Destroying the enviroment and using all any and resources is part of the "Moral" rights dogma. i.e. The Rapture coming soon so why bother worrying about tomorrow and party like it's 1999
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Well according to the Kennedy, that was on Bill Maher's recently,
RFK, Jr.
the other irony is that oppose stem cell research when aborted fetus are still being uesd. stem cell research is a huge red herring to get the right fired up for bigger issues. ironic that stem cells aren't even human in any form whats so ever. you watch next thing to be outlawed will be invtro ferterilzation. (spellin not so godo on litle slep)
So what happens when the Greens are the only ones that are in line with your values?

Originally posted by Doctor Doom:
I'll never vote for a Green… they (and Nader) are to blame for Bush getting elected the first time around.
Sad day.
Originally posted by econo:
So what happens when the Greens are the only ones that are in line with your values?
Then you do everything you can to ensure that the ones that are least in line with your values do not take control.
Originally posted by grotty:

The constitution dictates a Separation of Church & State. Yet, this President and his party are clearly aligned with the Christian Right. And they remind us every turn.
that's not what the constitution says. it says the govt. shall make no law abridging the right to worship freely, which is different. the "separation of church and state" was devised by jefferson sometime after he was president.

btw, the constitution says - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

we can argue over semantics all day long, but the fact is the founding fathers were very religious people (even jefferson in his own way). . .now, they may have believed that that statement meant a separation of church and state, but there really is now application or interpretation of it like that until jefferson makes it up after he left office.
Whats sad is that, if Kerry holds onto New Mexico and Iowa, and Bush ends up winning Ohio, it will be the shift in electoral college votes that gives him the victory.

With all states remaining as they were in 2000 except New Hampshire went Democrat.

so with these states, in 2000….it would be

Kerry 271
Bush 267

So i figure that since Kerry carries more urban areas and states, so what we have is the population shifting to rural areas and out of the big cities.

Living in one of those cities, one that people are moving out of at an alarming rate, i can see why.

America's cities are in sad shape and until that changes, rural Republicans will have the edge.

thats my pea-brained take on it…
again, it goes back to what I'm saying about us turning into a country of poorly educated, moronic halfwits.

By "poorly educated," I'm not talking about college or gradschool. I'm talking about making it through high school with a working knowledge of your own country's history and that of the world. Most of the people voting on "moral issues" don't have that, so it's easy to be a simpleton and just vote the way your preacher tells you to.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by grotty:

The constitution dictates a Separation of Church & State. Yet, this President and his party are clearly aligned with the Christian Right. And they remind us every turn.
that's not what the constitution says. it says the govt. shall make no law abridging the right to worship freely, which is different. the "separation of church and state" was devised by jefferson sometime after he was president.
That is true, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the Constitution. There is a problem, however, in that some people draw incorrect conclusions from this fact. The absence of this phrase does not mean that it is an invalid concept or that it cannot be used as a legal or judicial principle.

There are any number of important legal concepts which do not appear in the Constitution with the exact phrasing people tend to use. For example, nowhere in the Constitution will you find words like "right to privacy" or even "right to a fair trial." Does this mean that no American citizen has a right to privacy or a fair trial? Does this mean that no judge should ever invoke these rights when reaching a decision?

Of course not - the absence of these specific words does not mean that there is also an absence of these ideas.

The right to a fair trial, for example, is necessitated by what is in the text because what we do find simply makes no moral or legal sense otherwise. What the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution actually says is:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

There is nothing there about a "fair trial," but what should be clear is that this Amendment is setting up the conditions for fair trials: public, speedy, impartial juries, information about the crimes and laws, etc. The Constitution does not specifically say that you have a right to a fair trial, but the rights created only make sense on the premise that a right to a fair trial exists. Thus, if the government found a way to fulfill all of the above obligations while also making a trial unfair, the courts would hold those actions to be unconstitutional.

Similarly, courts have found that the principle of a "religious liberty" exists behind in the First Amendment, even if those words are not actually there:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…
The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.

Can anyone deny that the First Amendment guarantees the principle of religious liberty, even though those words do not appear there? Similarly, the First Amendment guarantees the principle of the separation of church and state - by implication, because separating church and state is what allows religious liberty to exist.
Basically, what the Democrats need to do is exile the minorities of DC to the Heartland states, and keep building more yuppie condos for all the limosine liberals to come live in DC. Basically, spread out the liberal vote more.


Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Whats sad is that, if Kerry holds onto New Mexico and Iowa, and Bush ends up winning Ohio, it will be the shift in electoral college votes that gives him the victory.

With all states remaining as they were in 2000 except New Hampshire went Democrat.

so with these states, in 2000….it would be

Kerry 271
Bush 267

So i figure that since Kerry carries more urban areas and states, so what we have is the population shifting to rural areas and out of the big cities.

Living in one of those cities, one that people are moving out of at an alarming rate, i can see why.

America's cities are in sad shape and until that changes, rural Republicans will have the edge.

thats my pea-brained take on it…
Originally posted by grotty:
The ultimate in Bush's hypocrisy:

Save the fetus! Kill the teenage soldier.

Let us not forget the hypocrisy of many liberals:

Kill the fetus. However, don't kill the convicted murderer.

If the former is hypocritical, the latter certainly is as well. Don't lose sight of that.
I also question the morals of having all of these other issues on the ballot with the Presidency.

The one in specific is the gay marraige thing. By putting the gay marraige on the ballot and getting more uptight Christians to go and vote for THAT, (and while they're at it, put one down for Bush)

I am sure this was strategically done and the Dems probably did the same, but i think it kinda sucks.
Originally posted by Summerteeth:
Originally posted by grotty:
The ultimate in Bush's hypocrisy:

Save the fetus! Kill the teenage soldier.

Let us not forget the hypocrisy of many liberals:

Kill the fetus. However, don't kill the convicted murderer.

If the former is hypocritical, the latter certainly is as well. Don't lose sight of that.
I have no interest in getting into an abortion argument with you. We both know that it's an issue than NEITHER science or religion can resolve.

So reconsider my original pt - let's not worry about unborn fetuses. Or even murderers. Worry about the American soldiers dying everyday for a lie that this president perpetrated, then refused to admit & has no plans for resolving.

No need to worry though - God is on his side.
Oh I know abortion is a very personal topic. I was just presenting the other side in fairness after you brought it up.

Politically, Republicans and Democrats both love pointing out hypocritical stances by the opposite side, but turn a blind eye on their own hypocritical stances. Its heat-of-passion argumentation, and its unfortunate that that is all politics really is now.