Schedule for Operation Cease Fire?

Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
Because ultimately, if you're so stupid that you VOLUNTARILY sign up for the military, you deserve whatever war your government sends you into.

Well now that I agree with.

I don't get this whole "support the troops" bull. If I don't agree with the war, why would I support people who are fighting it? The people fighting the war either (a) agree with it, or (b) disagree with it, but are so morally devoid they think killing people for something they don't agree in is a better alternative then sitting in a jail cell until the end of their signup. Either way, you're scum as far as I'm concerned.

So, how was the show?

I pretty much only saw Thievery Corporation. And they were fantastic, as expected.

Three words. DC Gorilla Poets.

And hearing Jello up there lisping away…"a group of 30 kick ath people known ath the Pure Belly Dantherth ith in the houth." was just priceless.

And Ted Leo was solid, though the sight of his legs in a pair of cutoff shorts was one I could do without.

Originally posted by dfmcpete:
So, how was the show?

Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Well now that I agree with.

I don't get this whole "support the troops" bull. If I don't agree with the war, why would I support people who are fighting it? The people fighting the war either (a) agree with it, or (b) disagree with it, but are so morally devoid they think killing people for something they don't agree in is a better alternative then sitting in a jail cell until the end of their signup. Either way, you're scum as far as I'm concerned. [/QB]

Wow, I'm speechless. Whoever said I was over the line definetely hasn't read this yet.

Wow, I'm speechless. Whoever said I was over the line definetely hasn't read this yet.

Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous too. But I feel like I basically responded to it in my previous post.

Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Wow, I'm speechless.

It's a shame you're not speechless all the time.

It makes perfect sense: if a soldier agrees with the war, and I disagree with the war, why should I "support" him? No US soldier fighting in Iraq has no alternative. They choose to kill people either because they feel the cause is just or because they feel the personal cost to themself of not doing so outweighs killing people, which in my mind is inconcievable.

If Country A invades Country B for no reason, and the world (and myself personally is outraged at that), why would I cheer for Country A's troops?

Originally posted by callat703:
Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous too.

How so?

It makes perfect sense: if a soldier agrees with the war, and I disagree with the war, why should I "support" him? If Country A invades Country B for no reason, and the world (and myself personally is outraged at that), why would I cheer for Country A's troops?

Okay; there is a difficulty in this, because saying you don't support the troops is like a guaranteed way to have your patriotism questioned.

I understand the point you're making. But the thing that you have to keep in mind is that the troops themselves have no say in whether or not they go to fight, or who they go to fight. They follow orders. While I understand what you're saying philosophically, about "sit in a jail cell" if you disagree with the premise of what you're fighting for, this is really kind of ridiculous if you think about it. These aren't drones that simply exist on principle - they're people who have families and lives to support. Principle is a great thing, but if it means costing you your job, welfare, and future (a dishonorable discharge from the military is just about a guarantee that you're going to have a very hard time getting a job in the future), it becomes a little more difficult.

You can support the troops without supporting the war because the troops didn't decide to be there. They're there, and they're following orders, and they don't really have a choice in the matter. If they support the war as individuals, yes, feel free to disagree with them. But ultimately, the people to hold accountable for these opinions are not the troops, but the leadership that instills these beliefs, and orders troops to follow through on them.

Yes they did. They decided on it when they signed up for the military. They knew full well that they were signing up for whatever war their country got into. They knew full well that they wouldn't be able to hand pick their war. Nobody was holding a gun to their head saying, I'ts not like the were drafted into the military.

Originally posted by callat703:

future), it becomes a little more difficult.

You can support the troops without supporting the war because the troops didn't decide to be there.

Originally posted by callat703:
Okay; there is a difficulty in this, because saying you don't support the troops is like a guaranteed way to have your patriotism questioned.

So? I'm not running for office. What do I care?

Originally posted by callat703:
While I understand what you're saying philosophically, about "sit in a jail cell" if you disagree with the premise of what you're fighting for, this is really kind of ridiculous if you think about it. These aren't drones that simply exist on principle - they're people who have families and lives to support. Principle is a great thing, but if it means costing you your job, welfare, and future (a dishonorable discharge from the military is just about a guarantee that you're going to have a very hard time getting a job in the future), it becomes a little more difficult.

I can fully understand the difficulties with going AWOL or whatever technical term we'd want to associate with actions like I'm saying, but as bad as that is, I think we'd all have to cop to that fact that it's better then being dead. I can understand working for a company you personally abhor to make money for your family - totally get it. But killing people so that "I don't have to have to get a dishonorable discharge and my wife won't have to work 2 jobs for a while" seems an unequal balance. If principles over not killing people aren't worth standing up for, what is? Many religious groups members (Jehovah's Witnesses, et al) HAVE sat in jail for years to avoid killing people.

Should Nazi soldiers and concentration camp officers been given a free pass because "gee, they were up against alot; they would have been jailed if they didn't fight!"

Very well said.

Also, if you disagree with something that you don't think is right at your job, do you quit? If so, then you must have held about 500 jobs in your lifetime. Otherwise you are doing the job that your boss told you to do so you can make a living, that's exactly what our troops are doing. Noone can fault them for following orders and like callat703 said, a dishonorable discharge is like throwing your life away. Unless you win the lottery of course. :D

Guess what? You need to thank the people that sign up for the military or else your ass might have been volunteered by the government to either go over there and fight or rot in jail for a few years, instead of writing and disrespecting our troops.

Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Also, if you disagree with something that you don't think is right at your job, do you quit? If so, then you must have held about 500 jobs in your lifetime. Otherwise you are doing the job that your boss told you to do so you can make a living, that's exactly what our troops are doing.

There's levels on things. If I was morally dead set against staplers getting replaced, and that was the be and end all of human existance, yes, I guess I would switch jobs. But we're not talking petty office politics like I mentioned in my previous posts, we're talking killing people and conquering soverign nations. I would assume you could see the difference.

Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Noone can fault them for following orders and like callat703 said, a dishonorable discharge is like throwing your life away.

So they throw someone else's life away. Actually yes, I can fault them for following that order; much like I'd fault Nazi concentration camp officers for gassing the jews. "Hey, they were just following orders!"

Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Guess what? You need to thank the people that sign up for the military or else your ass might have been volunteered by the government to either go over there and fight or rot in jail for a few years, instead of writing and disrespecting our troops.

Guess what? If the troops all refused to go, there'd be no war. A draft would cost the Republican party the next five presidency's, it never would have happened.

Oh, and just for argument's sake, had there been one, I gladly would have rot in jail for a few years. The thought of killing people for no reason is far more egregious then sitting in jail. I hate to be cliched and religious, but could you actually imagine Jesus faced with killing people or sitting in jail, he'd go kill people? Seriously?

Yes they did. They decided on it when they signed up for the military. They knew full well that they were signing up for whatever war their country got into. They knew full well that they wouldn't be able to hand pick their war. Nobody was holding a gun to their head saying, I'ts not like the were drafted into the military.

I assume this is what Rob_Gee was applauding.

Yes, this is the truth; and it supports what I'm saying. This is the reason we can support the troops without supporting the war - it ultimately doesn't matter what their personal viewpoint on the war is, because they don't have a say in it apart from their own votes in general elections like any other citizen.

Now, if you're anti-military in general, or anti-war in general, which seems to be the point that Julian is making, then I can't really answer to that apart from what I've already said.

Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
But we're not talking petty office politics like I mentioned in my previous posts, we're talking killing people and conquering soverign nations. I would assume you could see the difference.
[/QB]

Yeah, I wrote this as you were writing your response. Sorry.

Originally posted by callat703:
because they don't have a say in it apart from their own votes in general elections like any other citizen.

That's blatantly untrue. You act like the second they joined the military, they became a robot, devoid of thought and reason. Any US soldier over there can CHOOSE at any time to be shipped back here and sit in Fort Levenworth for a few. They choose not to, for one of various reasons, which I've highlighted already.

Certainly, that wouldn't stop THE WAR as a whole, but it'd stop THEIR PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT in it, which is what I applaud or boo people on.

So they throw someone else's life away. Actually yes, I can fault them for following that order; much like I'd fault Nazi concentration camp officers for gassing the jews. "Hey, they were just following orders!"

Like you said, there are levels on things. A soldier following orders, and killing somebody to prevent himself from being killed, is far, far different than Nazi concentration camps. Not even in the same realm.

Not everybody is 100 percent morally opposed to killing people - especially in war, certain causes are seen as justification for killing people. In this case, our government has decided that the justification is the liberation of the Iraqi people.

But if you are in the military, and don't have a viable choice of whether or not you go to Iraq to fight (sitting in a jail cell isn't a viable choice for most people), and it is either kill somebody or be killed, I think we ultimately know what the decision is going to be.

Originally posted by callat703:

I assume this is what Rob_Gee was applauding.
[/QB]

Actually, I was applauding what you wrote, he just snuck an entry in between mine and yours.