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DC Area Voters

Mobius
Joined: March 28, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1371
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:05 PM UTC #
This is a fantastic oppurtunity for Obama to step up and knock her out. There are a lot of glaring weaknesses in Hillary that he has politely declined to address. Now's the time to take her out. If he can't do this, he doesn't deserve the nomination (although he may do it and voters/superdelagates may not follow).

The risk is that focusing on Hillary may take his eye off the ball. He can't lose sight of his message and goals.

Also, he needs to fight what will be an instinct by the media and the public to cast him as a cartoon character or celebrity. He can't fall for his own star-power - he needs to put weight behind it and validate it. Now.
lwoxley
Joined: October 06, 2004 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4792
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:05 PM UTC #
It's the only way to campaign….it always has been and always will be so don't be so naive.

Osama is just more subtle at it, unfortunately one of his aids wasn't…and not even accurate.

Hillary is not a monster so that was totally innacurate. Had she called her "lard arse" that would've at least been an accurate statement, and I wonder what the media would've made of that??

Do you think Bill and Hillary still do 'it'….with each other?
lwoxley
Joined: October 06, 2004 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4792
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:07 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Mobius:

The risk is that focusing on Hillary may take his eye off the ball. He can't lose sight of his message and goals.

.
…and that message would be what exactly?

HOPE….CHANGE…..HOPE….CHANGE….HOPE….CHANGE.

Call me stupid but I need a bit more than that to become and Osama sheeple
ratioci nation
Joined: November 22, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4463
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:09 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
don't be so naive.
I knew that was coming

Originally posted by Brain Walrus:

Osama
cute
ratioci nation
Joined: November 22, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4463
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:10 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
…and that message would be what exactly?

HOPE….CHANGE…..HOPE….CHANGE….HOPE….CHANGE.

Call me stupid but I need a bit more than that to become and Osama sheeple
saying this shit while calling people sheeple, hello irony
vansmack
Joined: October 04, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 19725
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:12 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
Call me stupid but I need a bit more than that to become and Osama sheeple
I would never call you stupid. But I do question your research skills.

I would start here: The Blueprint for Change
ratioci nation
Joined: November 22, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4463
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:22 PM UTC #
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/148765.php

Let's call it the Republicans' Bitch-Slap theory of electoral politics.

It goes something like this.

On one level, of course, the aim behind these attacks is to cast suspicion upon Kerry's military service record and label him a liar. But that's only part of what's going on.

Consider for a moment what the big game is here. This is a battle between two candidates to demonstrate toughness on national security. Toughness is a unitary quality, really – a personal, characterological quality rather than one rooted in policy or divisible in any real way. So both sides are trying to prove to undecided voters either that they're tougher than the other guy or at least tough enough for the job.

In a post-9/11 environment, obviously, this question of strength, toughness or resolve is particularly salient. That, of course, is why so much of this debate is about war and military service in the first place.

One way – perhaps the best way – to demonstrate someone's lack of toughness or strength is to attack them and show they are either unwilling or unable to defend themselves – thus the rough slang I used above. And that I think is a big part of what is happening here. Someone who can't or won't defend themselves certainly isn't someone you can depend upon to defend you.

Demonstrating Kerry's unwillingness to defend himself (if Bush can do that) is a far more tangible sign of what he's made of than wartime experiences of thirty years ago.

Hitting someone and not having them hit back hurts the morale of that person's supporters, buoys the confidence of your own backers (particularly if many tend toward an authoritarian mindset) and tends to make the person who's receiving the hits into an object of contempt (even if also possibly also one of sympathy) in the eyes of the uncommitted.

This is certainly what Bush's father did to Michael Dukakis and, sadly, it is what Bush himself did, to a great degree, to Al Gore.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/182191.php


This is the type of phony "controversy" the GOP/Karl Rove uses to their advantage. Josh famously called it the "bitch slap" theory of politics, and Clinton is using the same playbook. Obama needed to send a signal that these types of fake outrages won't play, but by her quick resigntation, the bitch slap is alive and well.

Depressing.

So true, so true.

Now, one thing we get at TPM is a really front seat view of each side's immediate feelings and reactions to the campaign. The notes come in angry or plaintive or descriptive. And sometimes they're hard to read since we're on the receiving end of some of the emotional turmoil the intensity of the campaign churns up. So from that, I have a pretty good sense of where the Obama supporters are at at the moment. And a lot of the more intensely engaged of them are telling each other that what Power said is exactly right. And I can see why they're mad at Hillary after a lot of what's happened over the last couple weeks.

But you know what? Ice cream's fattening and we all die too. Get over it. This is about getting inside Obama's (the collective Obama, let's say) head, psyching him out, forcing mistakes and then going right back on the attack all over again. Getting the Obama folks pissed and gritting their teeth and off their game is precisely the point.

The Obama folks can either withdraw to a world where the 'new politics' reins or focus on the fact that her in the real world there are two 'old politics' practitioners standing between him and the presidency and he needs to decide how he's going to deal with that fact.
ratioci nation
Joined: November 22, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4463
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:23 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
TLDR
vansmack
Joined: October 04, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 19725
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:27 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
It's the only way to campaign….it always has been and always will be so don't be so naive.
Oh, the Audacity.
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 06:49 PM UTC #
Attacking your opponent means you dictate what they have to speak about. It gets them off their own message. It's American Politics 101. Kudos to Obama for trying to avoid that dirty pool up till now, but he can't play that way forever. There are plenty of shady land deals in Hillary's past, as well as quid pro quo Kazakh oil deals, senior advisors who awarded tens of millions of dollars in compensation to sub-prime mortgage company chairmen, criminal fund raisers, etc…, etc…, etc…

If Obama doesn't want to start playing those cards now, he won't be around in the fall when the GOP interest groups start playing them.
Brian_Walalce
Joined: May 16, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1484
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 07:07 PM UTC #
Originally posted by vansmack:
I would start here: The Blueprint for Change
You're so naive and smug. To quote Michael Strahan (by way of Mike Tyson):

"Everybody's got a plan…until they get punched in the face."

Brian
ggw
Joined: December 16, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 14237
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 07:12 PM UTC #
Would someone please explain to me what Hillary's "plan" is and why it is superior to Obama's?
Brian_Walalce
Joined: May 16, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1484
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 07:16 PM UTC #
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Would someone please explain to me what Hillary's "plan" is and why it is superior to Obama's?
If it's a woman: Start crying and make them empathize.

If it's a man: kick 'em in the balls.

Brian
vansmack
Joined: October 04, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 19725
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 08:13 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brian Wallace:
You're so naive and smug.
Me and 13,570,500 other people.
Mobius
Joined: March 28, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1371
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 08:46 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
Originally posted by Mobius:

The risk is that focusing on Hillary may take his eye off the ball. He can't lose sight of his message and goals.

.
…and that message would be what exactly?

HOPE….CHANGE…..HOPE….CHANGE….HOPE….CHANGE.

Call me stupid but I need a bit more than that to become and Osama sheeple
This is exactly the 'cartoonization' that Obama has to fight He has expressed a lot of substance behind the 'change' theme, particularly in the Texas and Ohio debates.

Great example is the $4,000 tuition subsidy for students who do community service. Fantastic idea. Exemplifies logical governance and a government focused on helping citizens who are committed to helping themselves and society. That's what people are rallying behind. That's real.

I think Hillary relies on the platitudes. Hillary's "solutions". What are they? What has she ever solved?

And the truth is the ability to inspire is the greatest asset a president can have. Its the characteristic that links all the best remembered presidents. An inspired country solves its problems.

Its ridiculous for a candidate's ability to inspire be used against him/her.
Doctor Doom
Joined: April 23, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 3745
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 10:53 PM UTC #
I'm a little disappointed in Obama's willingness/ability to broaden his message (and I don't mean indulging in attacks, which I believe is not necessary, and has been one of his strong points so far). He has the substance to back up his style, as anyone who has watched him debate knows – but he has been too slow to incorporate that into his speeches.

The idiots – Obamamaniacs – who are fainting at his rallies don't help either. They ought to find a way to screen people like that out. Reminds me of the lame poseurs who used to cry at Rites of Spring shows here in DC back in the day, because they were supposedly so emotionally overwhelmed.

I still think he'd make a vastly better president than Hillary, whom for all her crowing about "experience," really has none that is significant. Travelled to foreign countries? Been woken up by a phone at 3am? I've done those things too, doesn't mean I'm qualified to be president.

But between his somewhat lame adaptibility, and Hillary's "I'll destroy the Democratic party if that's what it takes to win" attitude, I think McCain must be rubbing his aged hands in glee.
lwoxley
Joined: October 06, 2004 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4792
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 11:01 PM UTC #
Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
I'm a little disappointed in Obama's willingness/ability to broaden his message (and I don't mean indulging in attacks, which I believe is not necessary, and has been one of his strong points so far). He has the substance to back up his style, as anyone who has watched him debate knows – but he has been too slow to incorporate that into his speeches.

The idiots – Obamamaniacs – who are fainting at his rallies don't help either. They ought to find a way to screen people like that out. Reminds me of the lame poseurs who used to cry at Rites of Spring shows here in DC back in the day, because they were supposedly so emotionally overwhelmed.

I still think he'd make a vastly better president than Hillary, whom for all her crowing about "experience," really has none that is significant. Travelled to foreign countries? Been woken up by a phone at 3am? I've done those things too, doesn't mean I'm qualified to be president.

But between his somewhat lame adaptibility, and Hillary's "I'll destroy the Democratic party if that's what it takes to win" attitude, I think McCain must be rubbing his aged hands in glee.
I'd probably vote for you over the other three choices…
vansmack
Joined: October 04, 2001 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 19725
Re: DC Area Voters March 07, 2008 at 11:08 PM UTC #
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
I'd probably vote for you over the other three choices…
Hey Doom - free campaing advice from Smackie.

This is not the endorsement you want from the boardies.
lwoxley
Joined: October 06, 2004 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4792
Re: DC Area Voters March 08, 2008 at 12:24 AM UTC #
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Would someone please explain to me what Hillary's "plan" is and why it is superior to Obama's?
I'm no Hillary fan, I just haven't bought into Obama's sales pitch. My wife has and we talk about it quite a bit…she tells me he's refreshing so I tell her I'd better vote for a carton of Tropicana because so is chilled orange juice not from concentrate.

I'm like the vast majority of voters and I'm not going to search out Obama's 'manifesto' I'm going to decide who's the better candidate from what I see during debates and what I read on the internet, which seems to be a little less biased than the news media, because they tend to have their own agenda as we all know.

Basically, from what I've seen he's said nothing..and I mean NOTHING. Hillary's no better really but there's so many in awe of this one term senator and I just don't see it.
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