once again the jokes write themselves...

Originally posted by sweetcell:
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
to me, it more fit the narrative that violence by obama supporters upon mccain supporters (i'm using violence loosely, from shooting up mccain signs and trying to set them on fire, to obama supporters at obama speeches yelling "stone her" and the c word when he talks about palin) being underreported by the MSN compared to the goings on of mccain supporters.
whatever makes you sleep at night, bede. hope you're kidding yourself, 'cause you ain't kidding anyone else. why hasn't the media been reporting mccain-on-obama violence? because there hasn't been enough to report on. guess whose campaign started the "terrorist" and "kill him" taunts? (hint: they are a staple at palin rallies). the lopsidedness of violence against obama vs violence against mccain isn't even close, but congrats on pulling yet another classic from the GOP playbook: painting oneself as a victim when in fact one is the main aggressor. not saying it doesn't happen - there is evidence that it has - but it's been decidedly one-sided. the one story that managed to raise above the fray - "white southern GOP volunteer attacked by evil black obama supporter" - turned out to be a complete fabrication. ya know what isn't false? ATF Says It Broke Up Tennessee Plot to Kill Obama, Other Blacks (oooooh, that's that "race" thing again). another link.

and i'm still waiting for a reply on my previous link, Pentagon Panel: Biden Was Right, Prep for 'Crisis' (third post on this page). oh, that's right, because there is no defensible reply - so best to ignore inconvenient truths. GOP has been busted. again.

moral bankruptcy may soon be knocking on the GOP's door.
yes, let's attack me because i don't fit in your neat little vision of the racist republican. . .how progressive and open y'all are. . .

biden's point was not that a new president will be tested, biden's point was that right now, people are coming up with ways specifically tied to obama. . .to test his mettle as a president. he was right to reference kennedy, because that was exactly what krushchev was planning with him. krushchev knew that he wouldn't be able to get away with it while ike was president, and probably wouldn't get away with if nixon won, but with kennedy, why not? and when the bay of pigs happened, that simply re-inforced krushchev's belief about kennedy. but, as biden told the crowd, don't worry about how obama will respond because ol joe biden will be there. how that is supposed to allay my fears, i don't know.

the lack of any historical understanding on this board is astounding.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:

the lack of any historical understanding on this board is astounding.
you know , all this time i never had you pegged for a smug knowitall.
Originally posted by chaz:
To down-play the role that race is playing in this election is ridiculous…..Race is playing an enourmous role in this election.

But all that said, put all that aside and take a pure look at policy and my vote is still clear.

We all know on this board who will get our votes next week. I can't wait to cast mine, especially living in VA, knowing that my state will play an historical role in this election.

Cheers to all the spirited debate in this thread.
i downplay race because it's unimportant to me- i even refuse to answer questions on surveys about what race i am, because i believe that it doesn't matter. rather, i am an american. . .we all are americans, at least those of who who are citizens. :)

i won't deny that race is an issue in the campaign, but i don't acknowledge it in my personal views or opinions because it's irrelevant to me. according to doom, that makes me a racist.

as much as i'm sure y'all are fascinated in how i can come to such vastly different conclusions on policy, i am just as fascinated in how obvious the choice is for me. i remember a few years ago someone posted a political quiz that asked a series of questions about your political philosophy and it spat out an answer. . .i remember that ggw and i were way out in libertarian land. . .and people like markie and rhett (i think) wondered how we got our scores. i won't speak for ggw, but i fundamentally that government is not the cure, it's the disease. it's why it upsets me to no end reading and listening to obama and biden blame deregulation on the current economic mess, a vote, i might add, that biden supported. if i had any small amount of belief that obama would support free trade, if i had any amount of belief that obama would veto certain bills that i expect to come in his first 100 days such as those that will limit free speech (fairness doctrine), or limit free assembly and association (union card check laws), for example, i'd be less bombastic and stand-offish. but i don't.

you are right, chaz. . .we all know how we're voting. . i'm just sad that people believe that all of this is a good thing.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
yes, let's attack me because i don't fit in your neat little vision of the racist republican. . .how progressive and open y'all are. . .
i definitely didn't mean to attack you, not sure where you saw that, but i apologies if you felt that i was. i thoroughly enjoy your presence in this thread. i don't agree with your ideas, but i certainly enjoy hearing them and arguing them.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
biden's point was not that a new president will be tested, biden's point was that right now, people are coming up with ways specifically tied to obama. . .to test his mettle as a president. he was right to reference kennedy, because that was exactly what krushchev was planning with him. krushchev knew that he wouldn't be able to get away with it while ike was president, and probably wouldn't get away with if nixon won, but with kennedy, why not? and when the bay of pigs happened, that simply re-inforced krushchev's belief about kennedy. but, as biden told the crowd, don't worry about how obama will respond because ol joe biden will be there. how that is supposed to allay my fears, i don't know.
that was not his point AT ALL. his point was that obama will be tested, because he'll be president. mccain will not be tested, because he'll be back in the senate - i.e. not the president.

do you really think enemies are making plans that depend on who is president? do you really think they fear mccain and think obama is a roll-over? "sh*t, we were going to attack the US and take hostages, but now that big bad daddy mccain is in the oval office we'd better go back to farming"?!? the notion that only the GOP can assure the country's safety is a crock. this is playong on people's fear… quick, let's raise the threat level to purple based on sources that can't be disclosed.

the abundance of self-delusion on this board is astounding :p
Alright, I'm come clean.

I'm voting for Arthways for president and Walkonby for VP.
Originally posted by sweetcell:
that was not his point AT ALL. his point was that obama will be tested, because he'll be president. mccain will not be tested, because he'll be back in the senate - i.e. not the president.

do you really think enemies are making plans that depend on who is president? do you really think they fear mccain and think obama is a roll-over? "sh*t, we were going to attack the US and take hostages, but now that big bad daddy mccain is in the oval office we'd better go back to farming"?!?
i don't think anyone knows. . .i do know that historically, upon regime changes, enemies of that government typically devise plans to test the willingness of the next leader. as noted previously, that's exactly what krushchev tried to do with kennedy over cuba. we will have to agree to disagree with biden's intention. . .to which i find your explanation unsupportable.

This is exactly what Biden said:

"Watch, weâ??re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.â?

i don't know how else to take it…..

He continues-

â??I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate,â? Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. â??And heâ??s gonna need help. And the kind of help heâ??s gonna need is, heâ??s gonna need you - not financially to help him - weâ??re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because itâ??s not gonna be apparent initially, itâ??s not gonna be apparent that weâ??re right.â?

we can all call mccain a war-monger. . .but how is what biden said really any different. . .snl was right to mock him and murtha last week.
From Pulitzer Prize winner Anne Applebaum. Bolding is mine:

Why McCain Lost Me

By Anne Applebaum
Tuesday, October 28, 2008; A17

Yesterday, while reading the latest polling data on John McCain, Sarah Palin and their appeal – or growing lack of it – to " independent women voters" it suddenly dawned on me: I am one of these elusive independent female voters, and I have the credentials to prove it. For the past couple of decades, I've sometimes voted Democratic, sometimes Republican. I'm even a registered independent, though I did think of switching to vote for John McCain in 2000. But because the last political party I truly felt comfortable with was Thatcher's Conservative Party (I lived in England in the 1980s and 1990s), I didn't actually do it.

The larger point, though, is that if I'm not voting for McCain – and, after a long struggle, I've realized that I can't – maybe it's worth explaining why, for I suspect there are other independent voters who feel the same. Particularly because it's not his campaign, disjointed though that has been, that finally repulses me: It's his rapidly deteriorating, increasingly anti-intellectual, no longer even recognizably conservative Republican Party. His problems are not technical; they do not have to do with ads, fundraising or tactics, as some have suggested. They are institutional; they have to do with his colleagues, advisers and supporters.

I should say here that I know McCain, slightly: He spoke at a party given for a book I wrote a few years ago, though I think that was as much about the subject (communist prison camps) as the author. But it's not his personality I admire most. Far more important is his knowledge of foreign affairs, an understanding that goes well beyond an ability to name the Pakistani president. McCain knows not only the names, he knows the people; and by this I mean not just foreign presidents but foreign members of parliament, foreign journalists, foreign generals. He goes to Germany every year, visits Vietnam often. He can talk intelligently about Belarus and Uzbekistan; I've heard him do it. Let's just say that's one of the things that distinguish him from our current president, who once confessed that "this foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating."

Another thing I liked about McCain was the deliberate distance he always kept from the nuttier wing of his party and, simultaneously, the loyalty he's shown to a recognizably conservative budgetary philosophy. Fiscal conservatism, balanced budgets, sober spending – all of these principles have been brushed away as so much nonsense for the past eight years by Republicans more interested in grandstanding about how much they hate Washington. McCain was one of the few who kept talking about them. He was also one of a shockingly few to understand that there is nothing American, let alone conservative, about torture, and that a battle for civilized values could not be won by uncivilized means.

Finally, I admired McCain's willingness to tackle politically risky issues such as immigration, the debate about which has long been drenched in hypocrisy. Those who want to ban it are illogically denying both the role that immigrants, especially the millions of illegal immigrants, already play in the U.S. economy as well as the improbability of forced deportations; those who want to allow it without restriction don't acknowledge the security risks. McCain tried to put together a bipartisan coalition in an effort to find a rational solution. He failed – blocked by the ideologues in his party.

If these traits appealed to me, they probably would have appealed to other independents, too. Why, then, has McCain spent the past four months running away from them? The appointment of Palin – inspired by his closest colleagues – turned out not to be a "maverick" move but, rather, a concession to those Republicans who think foreign policy can be conducted using a series of cliches and those in his party who shout down the federal government while quietly raking in federal subsidies. Although McCain has one of the best records for bipartisanship in the Senate, he's let his campaign appeal to his party's extremes. Though he is a true foreign policy intellectual, his supporters cultivate ignorance and fear: Watch Sean Hannity's " Barack Obama and Friends: A History of Radicalism" on YouTube if you don't believe me. Worse, McCain has – in a fatal effort to appeal to the least thoughtful, most partisan elements of his base – moved away from his previous positions on torture and immigration. Maybe that's all tactics, and maybe the "real" McCain will ditch the awful ideologues after Nov. 4, if by some miracle he happens to win. But how can I know that will happen?

Here's what I do know: I would give anything to rewrite history and make McCain president in 2000. But in 2008, I don't think I can vote for him. Barack Obama is indeed the least experienced, least tested candidate in modern presidential history. But at least if he wins, I can be sure that the mobs who cry "terrorist" at the sound of Obama's name will be kept far, far away from the White House.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/27/AR2008102702406_pf.html

applebaumletters@washpost.com
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by sweetcell:
that was not his point AT ALL. his point was that obama will be tested, because he'll be president. mccain will not be tested, because he'll be back in the senate - i.e. not the president.

do you really think enemies are making plans that depend on who is president? do you really think they fear mccain and think obama is a roll-over? "sh*t, we were going to attack the US and take hostages, but now that big bad daddy mccain is in the oval office we'd better go back to farming"?!?
i don't think anyone knows. . .i do know that historically, upon regime changes, enemies of that government typically devise plans to test the willingness of the next leader. as noted previously, that's exactly what krushchev tried to do with kennedy over cuba. we will have to agree to disagree with biden's intention. . .to which i find your explanation unsupportable.

This is exactly what Biden said:

"Watch, weâ??re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.â?

i don't know how else to take it…..

He continues-

â??I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate,â? Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. â??And heâ??s gonna need help. And the kind of help heâ??s gonna need is, heâ??s gonna need you - not financially to help him - weâ??re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because itâ??s not gonna be apparent initially, itâ??s not gonna be apparent that weâ??re right.â?

we can all call mccain a war-monger. . .but how is what biden said really any different. . .snl was right to mock him and murtha last week.
i just find it funny that i heard so many people, when Biden got picked as Obama's running mate, that Biden is the type of guy who can't keep his mouth shut and puts his foot in his mouth and says stuff contradictory and stuff that doesnt make sense.

Yet now, we're dissecting his every word and meaning as though this man doesnt totally speak off the cuff almost all of the time.

"a generated crisis"? do you believe he meant a terror attack? Was it just a way to distinguish a crisis other than the "economic crisis" as to not sound as though he didnt think that as a "crisis".

What is an ungenerated crisis?

My meaning from this was that sometime shortly Obama was going to have to make some large decision fast, probably internationally. Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, whatever. and that when he does make that choice, America cant afford to go off the deepend and immediately declare another useless war or some other kneejerk reaction as if Bush was still in power.
Originally posted by Jaguar:
Alright, I'm come clean.

I'm voting for Arthways for president and Walkonby for VP.
For what do I deserve that particular honor? Remember I'm the crazy that's voting Libertarian, not because Barr's great, he's kind of a douche, but because the Republican party has been the ignorant chest-beating party for a long time, and well, the Dems have their hearts in the right places, but are just plain wrong more often than not.
Originally posted by very sonick:
i just find it funny that i heard so many people, when Biden got picked as Obama's running mate, that Biden is the type of guy who can't keep his mouth shut and puts his foot in his mouth and says stuff contradictory and stuff that doesnt make sense.

Yet now, we're dissecting his every word and meaning as though this man doesnt totally speak off the cuff almost all of the time.

"a generated crisis"? do you believe he meant a terror attack? Was it just a way to distinguish a crisis other than the "economic crisis" as to not sound as though he didnt think that as a "crisis".

What is an ungenerated crisis?

My meaning from this was that sometime shortly Obama was going to have to make some large decision fast, probably internationally. Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, whatever. and that when he does make that choice, America cant afford to go off the deepend and immediately declare another useless war or some other kneejerk reaction as if Bush was still in power.
when he's merely a senator, he's "ahh, shucks, look what joe said," but he's the vp nominee. . .with the way y'all have been treating palin, i just assumed that you'd look at biden the same way. . .oh, darn it, there i go again.

i don't think it can be any more clear. . .biden is talking about a military crisis. . .how would you propose that pakistan create an economic crisis for america? ooooh, i hear pakistan has a great housing market, let's invest, surely they have plenty of money and wouldn't dare sell us smart capitalists phony mortgages.

i certainly hope that the left is prepared for obama not bringing the troops in iraq home, but keeping them in the middle east. . .as smackie and i argued before he left for his 2 month pilgrimage, both mccain and obama agree on afghanistan and pakistan- there are two disagreements, 1) mccain wants to finish iraq and leave it, hopefully stable in a few years; obama now wants to shift troops from iraq to afghanistan, but still leave a sizable force there for security for a few years and 2) obama is more willing to do stragetic attacks inside pakistan than mccain.

i read biden's statement to be exactly what you say it isn't. . .that he's asking for your trust that they have made the right decision to bomb somewhere; the only thing that's different between what biden said and bush is that biden is telling people they're gonna do it, but don't worry about it, TRUST US, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're different. what's the line from "baba o'riley"- meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
when he's merely a senator, he's "ahh, shucks, look what joe said," but he's the vp nominee. . .with the way y'all have been treating palin, i just assumed that you'd look at biden the same way. . .oh, darn it, there i go again.
Personally, i dont hang on every word Palin says. I dont like her, thats true, but while it may be correct what you said in general, it certainly doesnt pertain to me. I laugh at the idiotic things both of them have said.



i don't think it can be any more clear. . .biden is talking about a military crisis. . .how would you propose that pakistan create an economic crisis for america? ooooh, i hear pakistan has a great housing market, let's invest, surely they have plenty of money and wouldn't dare sell us smart capitalists phony mortgages.
isnt that what i said??



i certainly hope that the left is prepared for obama not bringing the troops in iraq home, but keeping them in the middle east. . .as smackie and i argued before he left for his 2 month pilgrimage, both mccain and obama agree on afghanistan and pakistan- there are two disagreements, 1) mccain wants to finish iraq and leave it, hopefully stable in a few years; obama now wants to shift troops from iraq to afghanistan, but still leave a sizable force there for security for a few years and 2) obama is more willing to do stragetic attacks inside pakistan than mccain.

i read biden's statement to be exactly what you say it isn't. . .that he's asking for your trust that they have made the right decision to bomb somewhere; the only thing that's different between what biden said and bush is that biden is telling people they're gonna do it, but don't worry about it, TRUST US, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're different. what's the line from "baba o'riley"- meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
again, i believe thats what i said it meant.

I also hope that Liberals do not think the troops are coming home. Personally, I am in agreeance with Obama that the US should focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan and less on Iraq, and I dont expect this crap in the middle east to be over by any means soon. or ever.

I think a huge problem with the Iraq war, and i bet you can find a survey about it, is that Americans felt they were lied to about it. Biden is trying to say that we can't have that anymore, that America cant continue fighting wars against terrorists without its citizens support.

We are taking the same meaning out of his comment, we just feel differently about it. would you agree?
Originally posted by Arthwys:
Originally posted by Jaguar:
Alright, I'm come clean.

I'm voting for Arthways for president and Walkonby for VP.
For what do I deserve that particular honor? Remember I'm the crazy that's voting Libertarian, not because Barr's great, he's kind of a douche, but because the Republican party has been the ignorant chest-beating party for a long time, and well, the Dems have their hearts in the right places, but are just plain wrong more often than not.
Because things I've seen you post previously are the closest to how I believe as oppossed to anyone else on this board. You just stated them much more eloquently.

I'm seriously considering writing in Ron Paul but haven't decided yet for sure. One thing I do know for sure is that there is no fucking way in Hell that I will vote for either McCain or Obama as I fully believe they are a pair of puppets controlled by the very same evil master. Neither in anyway represent me. I will NOT give in.

For those who believe this is a wasted vote, too bad. I must vote my heart and conscience and cannot for the life of me justify voting for either of the major parties. In my opinion, the only wasted vote is no vote at all. Then again, 'ol George Bush's cousin who owns the Diebold machines may just step in and rig the votes again. :roll:
Originally posted by very sonick:
again, i believe thats what i said it meant.

I also hope that Liberals do not think the troops are coming home. Personally, I am in agreeance with Obama that the US should focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan and less on Iraq, and I dont expect this crap in the middle east to be over by any means soon. or ever.

I think a huge problem with the Iraq war, and i bet you can find a survey about it, is that Americans felt they were lied to about it. Biden is trying to say that we can't have that anymore, that America cant continue fighting wars against terrorists without its citizens support.

We are taking the same meaning out of his comment, we just feel differently about it. would you agree?
hmmm, that maybe true. . .what i think accounts for the differences is that you believe that obama's policy on the middle east will be different than mccain's. i think they would basically be the same- but remember, this is all couched in biden's belief that somewhere forces are aligning to test obama, and that obama may do some crazy things, but don't worry, we will do them for the right reasons. . .now, if that's something you are fine with, then we do agree in our interpretations. i just find it funny that in mccain, that's a negative, but in obama, that's a positive.
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by very sonick:
again, i believe thats what i said it meant.

I also hope that Liberals do not think the troops are coming home. Personally, I am in agreeance with Obama that the US should focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan and less on Iraq, and I dont expect this crap in the middle east to be over by any means soon. or ever.

I think a huge problem with the Iraq war, and i bet you can find a survey about it, is that Americans felt they were lied to about it. Biden is trying to say that we can't have that anymore, that America cant continue fighting wars against terrorists without its citizens support.

We are taking the same meaning out of his comment, we just feel differently about it. would you agree?
hmmm, that maybe true. . .what i think accounts for the differences is that you believe that obama's policy on the middle east will be different than mccain's. i think they would basically be the same- but remember, this is all couched in biden's belief that somewhere forces are aligning to test obama, and that obama may do some crazy things, but don't worry, we will do them for the right reasons. . .now, if that's something you are fine with, then we do agree in our interpretations. i just find it funny that in mccain, that's a negative, but in obama, that's a positive.
we agree again. :) I think that McCain is very capable of handling the situation in the middle east. I do think Obama could do just as well (or bad if you are a glass half empty person). and i think both of them will handle things better than the current adminstration did in the past.

Personally the issue on foreign policy is a wash for me when considering the candidates. Does this mean i should have just kept my mouth shut on this issue?
i also think that if McCain wins the election and this crisis happens (and it will no matter who gets elected) that Americans should stand behind their leader, to a certain extent of course. questioning authority is cool sometimes but all the time, its obnoxious.
but why me as vp? to cause total chaos and destroy all things sacred about the position? oh wait. palin could still win.
the larger issue than how mccain and obama will continue to handle the botched situations in iraq and afghanistan is how they will handle new foreign policy obsticals that will emerge while they are in office. mccain loved the iraq war and still thinks the concept was good if the execution was poor. obama didnt like the iraq war to begin with and realizes that it was not a sound policy decision. for me thats the clear difference
Originally posted by walkonby:
but why me as vp? to cause total chaos and destroy all things sacred about the position? oh wait. palin could still win.
For one, you know about and maybe even understand Project Bluebeam. Secondly, you would provide a nice out of the box open minded balance to Arthways' very logical approach. A bit of checks and balances administration at the top.

Have to admit that if some weird series of events happen (staged or otherwise), the thought of Palin as President scares me even more than MaCain or Obama.

Have to leave for work. Later.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
the larger issue than how mccain and obama will continue to handle the botched situations in iraq and afghanistan is how they will handle new foreign policy obsticals that will emerge while they are in office. mccain loved the iraq war and still thinks the concept was good if the execution was poor. obama didnt like the iraq war to begin with and realizes that it was not a sound policy decision. for me thats the clear difference
regardless of their beliefs, one of them will inherit iraq. . .whether obama opposed the war or not or mccain supported the war or not, becomes irrelevant. . .what matters is what are they going to do about it. both of them, yes both of them, are going to keep some amount of troops in iraq. . .both of them are going to re-deploy troops in afghanistan. short of obama deciding to evacuate from the middle east, however much he opposed the iraq war isn't going to make a lick of difference in the execution of whatever strategy either men choose. believing that because he opposed the iraq war means he'll have a better understanding of what to do with iraq is unfounded.
thats not what i said at all