Orioles....part 2?

chaz wrote:
The hate on Bonds is because he broke the most hallowed record in sports by cheating.

I was waiting for someone to say this. Excellent.

Another under commented on part is his truculence with the media. The media hated bonds because he made it harder for them to do their jobs. The average sports fan is an idiot who regurgitates whatever the media and ESPN says – hence why people irrationally hate lebron despite him being the greatest basketball player of all time – because they don't like critical thinking. It shouldn't actually matter to any sports fan that bonds was aloof with the media because it doesn't affect us one iota, however the fact of the media kept calling him names basically for a decade before there's any steroid allegations just primed the well for his comeuppance.

chaz wrote:
The hate on Bonds is because he broke the most hallowed record in sports by cheating.

it was only the most hallowed record after mcgwire broke the single season HR record and we found out he cheated… oh, well, then it must be the all-time home run total that matters the most. right.

historical stats are meaningless these days.  we have WAR and era+ and all of the other new age statistics to tell us how remarkable a player is.  also meaningless? "hating" a player you never know outside of the media's portrayal of him.

stevewizzle wrote:

chaz wrote:
The hate on Bonds is because he broke the most hallowed record in sports by cheating.

it was only the most hallowed record after mcgwire broke the single season HR record and we found out he cheated… oh, well, then it must be the all-time home run total that matters the most. right.

OK, if you must split hairs then I will explain it for you.  Yes the single season mark was at one time the most hallowed.  But it was sullied first.  So at the time that Bonds broke the all time mark, it was the most revered record still to be held by a clean player.

stevewizzle wrote: also meaningless? "hating" a player you never know outside of the media's portrayal of him.

I take a little issue with this statement.  I hated Bonds for these reasons:


I Told Bonds to Move up, he gave me the finger

"The Great White Hope" comment (he doesn't deny saying it)

This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

And this Bonds signs contract with the Giants

All long before he 'roided up.

vansmack wrote:


This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

Amazing

chaz wrote:

vansmack wrote:


This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

Amazing

How does this make Bonds look bad? Leyland looks like a loon.

vansmack wrote:

stevewizzle wrote: also meaningless? "hating" a player you never know outside of the media's portrayal of him.

I take a little issue with this statement.  I hated Bonds for these reasons:


I Told Bonds to Move up, he gave me the finger

"The Great White Hope" comment (he doesn't deny saying it)

This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

And this Bonds signs contract with the Giants

All long before he 'roided up.

not to over-simplify this, but the reason you hate him is because he wants to make a lot of money, he openly talked about race being an issue, and he wants to be the best?

chaz wrote:
OK, if you must split hairs then I will explain it for you.  Yes the single season mark was at one time the most hallowed.  But it was sullied first.  So at the time that Bonds broke the all time mark, it was the most revered record still to be held by a clean player.

honestly i'm not sure what you're explaining here.  both are sullied, why does it matter which one came first?

Julian, wrote:

chaz wrote:

vansmack wrote:


This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

Amazing

How does this make Bonds look bad? Leyland looks like a loon.

i don't think one comes out looking better than the other, but I sure enjoyed watching it.

stevewizzle wrote:
not to over-simplify this, but the reason you hate him is because he wants to make a lot of money, he openly talked about race being an issue, and he wants to be the best?

Where have you been all my life?!

chaz wrote:

Julian, wrote:

chaz wrote:

vansmack wrote:


This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

Amazing

How does this make Bonds look bad? Leyland looks like a loon.

i don't think one comes out looking better than the other, but I sure enjoyed watching it.

Maybe I'm missing something because of the low volume but Leyland goes on a tirade as players look on awkwardly and Bonds tries to say something to placate him and Leyland just keeps going. And I like Leyland.

Julian, wrote:

chaz wrote:

Julian, wrote:

chaz wrote:

vansmack wrote:


This "discussion" with Leyland after he lost his salary arbitration

Amazing

How does this make Bonds look bad? Leyland looks like a loon.

i don't think one comes out looking better than the other, but I sure enjoyed watching it.

Maybe I'm missing something because of the low volume but Leyland goes on a tirade as players look on awkwardly and Bonds tries to say something to placate him and Leyland just keeps going. And I like Leyland.

Yes, true I suppose.  In the video it seems as Leyland just jumps on him for no reason.  But at some point he says "Lets just get this shit over with right now, or go home."  Bond's replies with "OK", which left me with the impression that he was acknowledging being a malcontent -  and I don't think ANYONE would ever argue that he was not that!

stevewizzle wrote:
not to over-simplify this, but the reason you hate him is because he wants to make a lot of money, he openly talked about race being an issue, and he wants to be the best?

But you did over simplify it. And Smackie is not simple.

He gave the finger to a five time gold glove outfielder, who's job it was to lineup the outfield, and we all know how that play turned out.  Andy was right, and Bonds arrogance cost his team a chance to play in the World Series.  As a fan, I can never forgive that.

Bonds made it a race issue on the f#$%^& eve of the playoffs!  That deal was signed months before that, why bring it up then?  Why the 40 minute diatribe about yourself at the start of the playoffs?  The Pirates offered Bonilla and Van Slyke the same three year extensions - only Andy accepted it.  Bonilla felt he was worth more and wanted to test free agency (and did and the Mets still regret it - well, until they resigned him in 1999 and are still paying him today!).

His drive to be the best was his ultimate downfall.  That's what led him to cheat.  Why would I support that?  I don't mind you wanting to be the best, but I absolutely mind if you cheat to do it.

vansmack wrote:
His drive to be the best was his ultimate downfall.  That's what led him to cheat.  Why would I support that?  I don't mind you wanting to be the best, but I absolutely mind if you cheat to do it.

isn't that the classical character arc of an antagonist?  i find his career fascinating and tragic.

living in the bay area and not being a giants fan has a lot to do with it too, right?

clemens left the red sox and scripted a similar villainous narrative.  i still don't hate him, though.

chaz wrote:
Yes, true I suppose.  In the video it seems as Leyland just jumps on him for no reason.  But at some point he says "Lets just get this shit over with right now, or go home."  Bond's replies with "OK", which left me with the impression that he was acknowledging being a malcontent -  and I don't think ANYONE would ever argue that he was not that!

You can read all about it right here (Pages 22 and 23)

It was reported at the time and many times after that, after showing up late for camp, Bonds was shouting at photographers and coaches and had been bitching to his team mates in spring training that the Pirates ownership should be paying him more, even though he had lost his arbitration battle (for the second year in a row).  He asked for $3.3m and the Pirates offered him $2.3m and won.  He felt he should be paid what the MVP should be paid, despite the CBA talking about service time.

Leyland had had enough.

stevewizzle wrote:
living in the bay area and not being a giants fan has a lot to do with it too, right?

No.  I was still in Orange County when he left Pittsburgh and was in DC when I enjoyed the greatest payback.

vansmack wrote:
At least nobody defends Rodriguez any longer.

The Dominicans are always getting screwed.

Julian, wrote:

stevewizzle wrote:
not to over-simplify this, but the reason you hate him is because he wants to make a lot of money, he openly talked about race being an issue, and he wants to be the best?

Where have you been all my life?!

awaiting my julian for mod t-shirt ;)

stevewizzle wrote:

ggw wrote:

hutch wrote:
its amazing how much a guy like bonds got villified..then you have an admitted cheater (once? I think twice) and he's getting standing ovations? and people talking on mlb network about how great a hitter he is?

Braun only got a standing o at home. On the road, he gets jeered and heckled.  Bonds, like Rodriguez and Roger Clemens, is getting extra hate for the lying on top of the cheating.

it's not out of line to say bonds gets some extra hate for two other reasons: he was really, really, good, and he's black.

and a third (i have not yet read the rest of thread so its prob been mentioned): he was arrogant and got along poorly with the press

the hatred for bonds when he was belting all those home runs the past few years bordered on the irrational and moronic.

as if the other players everyone cheered on weren't doing the same thing..it just happened that bonds was better than them and unlikable.. in fact he was too much better than them.

now its "oh ryan braun cheated and got caught like twice but he said he was sorry so its ok"

give me a break

i had many a heated conversation at ballgames with people who just thought bonds was the devil as he got nearer and nearer to aaron….but their understanding of what was going on with the game with steroids was next to zero…. they lived in some bubble where it was just bonds doing this….

Not sure there are any people outside of Milwaukee that think Ryan Braun is ok.

Getting back on track….nice win today.  Very happy with the split.