TBD

RatBastard wrote:

hutch wrote:

atomic wrote:

hutch wrote:

walkonby wrote:
a soon to be crooked politician, beat a crooked politician . . . news at eleven.

yeah but at least he won't be the likely next Speaker of the House (second in line to the presidency)

The new guy's biggest campaign fight was against amnesty for illegal aliens.  I guess that is something we can all agree on. 

Not me..I am for limited legalization and a path toward legalization for all…..its just a matter of time my friend… a matter of demographics….math…..there are at least 53-55 million hispanics legally in this country…reproducing at a faster rate than any other group…. unless the Republican Party wants to lose every election moving forward they're going to have to work with Democrats on the issue of immigration… no matter what some of their constituency thinks… how do Republicans win if they give up on states like Colorado, Nevada, Florida and New Mexico…. there is simply no path to the presidency without hispanic support in so many swing states… Even North Carolina has a lot of hispanics…

There already is a path to citizenship.  It is called enter the country legally.  Hispanic does not equal illegal.  It is rather racist of you to make that generalization.  I can only imagine the backlash by libs had a conservative done that.  The work that needs to be done is enforce the immigration laws we have now.  There is nothing we should do that will reward someone who by the very first act in entering the country, broke the law.  I do think we need to make one revision to our law, that being we need to modify the 'if you are born here you are a citizen' law to be 'if you are born here and your parents are legal and citizens then you are a citizen.

You must have missed what I wrote, I want to think:

I wrote "there are at least 53-55 million hispanics legally in this country"

I await your apology.

Legal immigration is a joke…its not like the old days where you could come in..these days getting in line is like getting in a neverending line that never moves… those people here illegally are here because they are needed as workers..they don't come here just to hang out!… you want to stop illegal immigration? don't give them jobs… they're going to keep coming as long as they can get jobs… there is a great hypocrisy to the position that they should come legally but hey if you come illegally we'll give you jobs..of course we'll exploit you… why are those guys outside the hardware store or 7-11 every morning picked up by Americans to work? Because they are cheap and do good work. America couldn't survive without illegal immigrants….

As far as the "if you're born here you're American" aspect… I think its served us fine for hundreds of years so I would not change it…

hutch wrote:

RatBastard wrote:

hutch wrote:

atomic wrote:

hutch wrote:

walkonby wrote:
a soon to be crooked politician, beat a crooked politician . . . news at eleven.

yeah but at least he won't be the likely next Speaker of the House (second in line to the presidency)

The new guy's biggest campaign fight was against amnesty for illegal aliens.  I guess that is something we can all agree on. 

Not me..I am for limited legalization and a path toward legalization for all…..its just a matter of time my friend… a matter of demographics….math…..there are at least 53-55 million hispanics legally in this country…reproducing at a faster rate than any other group…. unless the Republican Party wants to lose every election moving forward they're going to have to work with Democrats on the issue of immigration… no matter what some of their constituency thinks… how do Republicans win if they give up on states like Colorado, Nevada, Florida and New Mexico…. there is simply no path to the presidency without hispanic support in so many swing states… Even North Carolina has a lot of hispanics…

There already is a path to citizenship.  It is called enter the country legally.  Hispanic does not equal illegal.  It is rather racist of you to make that generalization.  I can only imagine the backlash by libs had a conservative done that.  The work that needs to be done is enforce the immigration laws we have now.  There is nothing we should do that will reward someone who by the very first act in entering the country, broke the law.  I do think we need to make one revision to our law, that being we need to modify the 'if you are born here you are a citizen' law to be 'if you are born here and your parents are legal and citizens then you are a citizen.

You must have missed what I wrote, I want to think:

I wrote "there are at least 53-55 million hispanics legally in this country"

I await your apology.

Legal immigration is a joke…its not like the old days where you could come in..these days getting in line is like getting in a neverending line that never moves… those people here illegally are here because they are needed as workers..they don't come here just to hang out!… you want to stop illegal immigration? don't give them jobs… they're going to keep coming as long as they can get jobs… there is a great hypocrisy to the position that they should come legally but hey if you come illegally we'll give you jobs..of course we'll exploit you… why are those guys outside the hardware store or 7-11 every morning picked up by Americans to work? Because they are cheap and do good work. America couldn't survive without illegal immigrants….

As far as the "if you're born here you're American" aspect… I think its served us fine for hundreds of years so I would not change it…

Are you a racist?  All I ever you talk about all the Hispanics.  We should let people from each country on equal terms.  They have so many kids because they are poor.  The reason they get jobs is because businesses want cheap labor and don't want to pay for any benefits.  We can head towards being a third world country or we can select people to come into the country that will help the country improve.  I am all for leafing in tons of immigrants but not just people to clean bathrooms and cut grass or work on road crews.  We have enough uneducated people here.  If you get an engineering degree from a good college welcome to the USA.

Canada erupts in wild celebration

http://news.yahoo.com/sen-cruz-formally-gives-canadian-citizenship-225938275.html

hutch wrote:
Canada erupts in wild celebration

http://news.yahoo.com/sen-cruz-formally-gives-canadian-citizenship-225938275.html

God, I've got to emigrate to Canada some day. So sad Sweets is already married because is total marry him for a green card… or whatever the Canadian version of that is.

RatBastard wrote:

ggw wrote:
If you want to someday receive something from that Social Security fund you have been paying into, you should welcome every immigrant with open arms.  Cause those self-absorbed Baby Boomer fuckers are going to spend the next 25-30 years pillaging that shit.

I think most people do welcome LEGAL immigrants.  However there is no justifiable reason to reward someone when their very first act of entering the country is to break the law.  It is 100% pure common sense.  All I am asking is that if someone wants to come to this country and be a citizen is that they do so legally. 

i've met and stayed with families in central america who have a few family members in the states. a young, bright member of their family tried to immigrate the right way and got denied.  next time, he decided to cross illegally.  when the difference is stay at home and make $1USD vs. $10USD abroad, the legality of what you're doing probably does not concern you very much.  by no means am i justiifying this, but i think it starts to paint the picture of why it's not so black and white. perhaps the answer is both make nationalization easier, and harsher penalties for those who do break the law. 

hutch wrote:

You must have missed what I wrote, I want to think:

I wrote "there are at least 53-55 million hispanics legally in this country"

I await your apology.

Legal immigration is a joke…its not like the old days where you could come in..these days getting in line is like getting in a neverending line that never moves… those people here illegally are here because they are needed as workers..they don't come here just to hang out!… you want to stop illegal immigration? don't give them jobs… they're going to keep coming as long as they can get jobs… there is a great hypocrisy to the position that they should come legally but hey if you come illegally we'll give you jobs..of course we'll exploit you… why are those guys outside the hardware store or 7-11 every morning picked up by Americans to work? Because they are cheap and do good work. America couldn't survive without illegal immigrants….

As far as the "if you're born here you're American" aspect… I think its served us fine for hundreds of years so I would not change it…

No way in hell that I can follow that multi-nested quote to figure out what it is you are commenting on.  Sorry, my dyslexia is fucking with me.  I believe what i was replying to was. (what I read as) you posting about hispanics being in the country legally being relevant in any way to how the country should deal with illegal immigrants.  I will however say this…

1) Illegals are NOT 'needed' to perform any jobs.
2) I am all for making it very detrimental for any employee who hires illegals.
3) The USA would be a Lot better off without illegals immigrants (a lot less freeloaders and CRIMINALS for those who work had and respect the law to support, they are criminals by definition when they choose to enter the country illegally).
4) The 'born here' may have worked in the past but it sure as hell isn't working now.

stevewizzle wrote:

RatBastard wrote:

ggw wrote:
If you want to someday receive something from that Social Security fund you have been paying into, you should welcome every immigrant with open arms.  Cause those self-absorbed Baby Boomer fuckers are going to spend the next 25-30 years pillaging that shit.

I think most people do welcome LEGAL immigrants.  However there is no justifiable reason to reward someone when their very first act of entering the country is to break the law.  It is 100% pure common sense.  All I am asking is that if someone wants to come to this country and be a citizen is that they do so legally. 

i've met and stayed with families in central america who have a few family members in the states. a young, bright member of their family tried to immigrate the right way and got denied.  next time, he decided to cross illegally.  when the difference is stay at home and make $1USD vs. $10USD abroad, the legality of what you're doing probably does not concern you very much.  by no means am i justiifying this, but i think it starts to paint the picture of why it's not so black and white. perhaps the answer is both make nationalization easier, and harsher penalties for those who do break the law. 

This begs the question of why he was denied.  Under these circumstances, he should have been immediately shipped back home and whoever it was that paid him $10 an hour should have been fined heavily.

By the logic above, if I can't get a decent paying job then it is justifiable for me to rob a bank in order to make a lot of money and to heck with it being illegal.  I do comprehend that you do not justify it, but it is still black and white.

stevewizzle wrote:

RatBastard wrote:

ggw wrote:
If you want to someday receive something from that Social Security fund you have been paying into, you should welcome every immigrant with open arms.  Cause those self-absorbed Baby Boomer fuckers are going to spend the next 25-30 years pillaging that shit.

I think most people do welcome LEGAL immigrants.  However there is no justifiable reason to reward someone when their very first act of entering the country is to break the law.  It is 100% pure common sense.  All I am asking is that if someone wants to come to this country and be a citizen is that they do so legally. 

i've met and stayed with families in central america who have a few family members in the states. a young, bright member of their family tried to immigrate the right way and got denied.  next time, he decided to cross illegally.  when the difference is stay at home and make $1USD vs. $10USD abroad, the legality of what you're doing probably does not concern you very much.  by no means am i justiifying this, but i think it starts to paint the picture of why it's not so black and white. perhaps the answer is both make nationalization easier, and harsher penalties for those who do break the law. 

I am sure most of us would be better of if we moved to Norway.  But Norway isn't letting anyone who wants just to cross the border and get all the benefits and social support that they give their citizens. 

I think outlawing television and the internet would make everyone much healthier.  Who is with me?

if we outlawed the internet…how would we hear from you?

RatBastard wrote:

stevewizzle wrote:

RatBastard wrote:

ggw wrote:
If you want to someday receive something from that Social Security fund you have been paying into, you should welcome every immigrant with open arms.  Cause those self-absorbed Baby Boomer fuckers are going to spend the next 25-30 years pillaging that shit.

I think most people do welcome LEGAL immigrants.  However there is no justifiable reason to reward someone when their very first act of entering the country is to break the law.  It is 100% pure common sense.  All I am asking is that if someone wants to come to this country and be a citizen is that they do so legally. 

i've met and stayed with families in central america who have a few family members in the states. a young, bright member of their family tried to immigrate the right way and got denied.  next time, he decided to cross illegally.  when the difference is stay at home and make $1USD vs. $10USD abroad, the legality of what you're doing probably does not concern you very much.  by no means am i justiifying this, but i think it starts to paint the picture of why it's not so black and white. perhaps the answer is both make nationalization easier, and harsher penalties for those who do break the law. 

This begs the question of why he was denied.  Under these circumstances, he should have been immediately shipped back home and whoever it was that paid him $10 an hour should have been fined heavily.

By the logic above, if I can't get a decent paying job then it is justifiable for me to rob a bank in order to make a lot of money and to heck with it being illegal.  I do comprehend that you do not justify it, but it is still black and white.

don't distort my logic. if you could make 10 times as much as you make doing the same thing, would you do it? he was a day laborer in el salvador, he was going to be a laborer in this country.  he didn't get in because he didn't have any proof that he would be employed here.  construction jobs don't always (read: rarely) document their cheap labor.  it's what has built this country. again, not justifying ANY of this, just telling it how it is.  but please, feel free to distort that, too. 

atomic wrote:

stevewizzle wrote:

RatBastard wrote:

ggw wrote:
If you want to someday receive something from that Social Security fund you have been paying into, you should welcome every immigrant with open arms.  Cause those self-absorbed Baby Boomer fuckers are going to spend the next 25-30 years pillaging that shit.

I think most people do welcome LEGAL immigrants.  However there is no justifiable reason to reward someone when their very first act of entering the country is to break the law.  It is 100% pure common sense.  All I am asking is that if someone wants to come to this country and be a citizen is that they do so legally. 

i've met and stayed with families in central america who have a few family members in the states. a young, bright member of their family tried to immigrate the right way and got denied.  next time, he decided to cross illegally.  when the difference is stay at home and make $1USD vs. $10USD abroad, the legality of what you're doing probably does not concern you very much.  by no means am i justiifying this, but i think it starts to paint the picture of why it's not so black and white. perhaps the answer is both make nationalization easier, and harsher penalties for those who do break the law. 

I am sure most of us would be better of if we moved to Norway.  But Norway isn't letting anyone who wants just to cross the border and get all the benefits and social support that they give their citizens. 

i don't think norway offers ten times your annual salary.  even if an illegal worker gets kicked out after one year, they made ten years worth of income in the states.

ok let's get this straight
The MAIN reason most of these migrants come here illegally is because American companies hire them by the busload

I do think that a guest worker program is a better way going forward…what to do with the millions already here…well that's a complicated question and I'm not even going to try to post a thought on that

BTW, I've met plenty of illegal Irish, polish and Russians here in DC who also are breaking the law, but most people only care about the Hispanics….basically because they are racists and think this country is only for White Europeans Christians

If we decide to go down the path of not having 'illegals', start expecting to see a major price increase at the grocery store, the new home market and tons of other industries that pretty much use this labor to keep costs low.

The other thing is most 'Americans' don't want these jobs at all.  I've heard many stories in the south one state started really cracking down, so the migrant population pretty much left the state and the farmers couldn't pay anyone to pick the fruit.

Sidehatch wrote:
If we decide to go down the path of not having 'illegals', start expecting to see a major price increase at the grocery store, the new home market and tons of other industries that pretty much use this labor to keep costs low.

The other thing is most 'Americans' don't want these jobs at all.  I've heard many stories in the south one state started really cracking down, so the migrant population pretty much left the state and the farmers couldn't pay anyone to pick the fruit.

kicking out illegal immigrants has devastating effects on local economies.  while the position of "they broke the law to get here so we need to kick them out no matter what" reeks of moral superiority and is a complete disregard of reality.

Alabama, Georgia and Oklahoma (all bastions of racial tolerance) all passed don't-hire-illegals laws, and the results were horrible:

A new study details the economic impact of harsh immigration laws such as those passed by Alabama and five other states. Published by the Center for Business & Economic Research at the University of Alabama, it?s the first economic cost-benefit analysis (PDF) of the state?s immigration statute. Dr. Samuel Addy, an economist and director of the Center, found that the law, known as HB 56, will annually shrink Alabama?s economy by at least $2.3 billion and will cost the state not less than 70,000 jobs. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-14/alabamas-immigration-law-could-cost-billions-annually

Bitter Harvest: U.S. Farmers Blame Billion-Dollar Losses on Immigration Laws
http://business.time.com/2012/09/21/bitter-harvest-u-s-farmers-blame-billion-dollar-losses-on-immigration-laws/

Following the passage of Alabama's strict immigration law, which has caused thousands of undocumented immigrants to flee the state due to fears of deportation, farmers are suffering from a labor shortage that they say won't be filled by unemployed American citizens

Farmers in Alabama and other parts of the country often must rely on undocumented immigrants for labor because they say Americans aren't willing to commit themselves to strenuous, low-paying jobs that immigrants are willing to perform – and well. http://www.ibtimes.com/illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-leads-severe-agricultural-labor-shortage-325334

To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state?s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables. (this plan didn't work) http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/

Alabama?s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether. (…) Many farmers want to hire local workers, but it is increasingly difficult to find U.S. natives with the proper skills. Few are willing or able to perform the physically taxing and low paying labor which requires them to move with the crops, even with wages of $15-$20 an hour. http://www.policymic.com/articles/8272/alabama-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-destroys-farm-business

Back in 2007, theOklahomalegislature passed a bill titled the Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007, otherwise known as HB 1804. Its intent was just like that ofAlabama?s HB56 ? drive out undocumented immigrants.

  Supporters of HB 1804 said the same thing about undocumented immigrants that Alabama supporters are saying now ? that the undocumented are a drain on their state.

  Well, it?s been four years and Oklahoma legislators are seeing and feeling the effects of just how wrong they were.

  ?Since the passage of House Bill 1804, we?ve seen a mass exodus of undocumented immigrants who have taken up residence in Texas and other surrounding states where they pump millions of dollars into those economies,? Sen. Harry Coates, R-Seminole said. ?House Bill 1804 did little more than put Oklahoma companies at a disadvantage by sending dedicated, knowledgeable workers to competing companies in other states. Losing that workforce has been devastating for many of Oklahoma?s industries, including agriculture, energy and construction.? http://laprensa-sandiego.org/editorial-and-commentary/commentary/oklahoma-latest-state-recognizing-anti-immigrant-law-was-bad-business/

so all the build-a-wall yahoos are essentially saying: it's more important to kick people out on principle (AKA "just because"), then it is to have jobs and a healthy economy. 

what exactly is the problem that is being solved here?

tell that to the sixth-generation farmer who now has to sell his farm, for pennies on the dollar, because his business is no longer viable.

great points being made and substantiated here ^

unfortunately Republicans and their supporters live in the world of fiction….a world that lacks reason and all logic…

luckily they are increasingly becoming a minority…

these policies they advocate will make it impossible for them to win the White House…

hutch wrote:
luckily they are increasingly becoming a minority…

Unfortunately it can't happen fast enough for me
they are really bad at reading the writing on the wall and still want to live in this imaginary 50's America that never really existed anyway

sweetcell wrote:

Sidehatch wrote:
If we decide to go down the path of not having 'illegals', start expecting to see a major price increase at the grocery store, the new home market and tons of other industries that pretty much use this labor to keep costs low.

The other thing is most 'Americans' don't want these jobs at all.  I've heard many stories in the south one state started really cracking down, so the migrant population pretty much left the state and the farmers couldn't pay anyone to pick the fruit.

kicking out illegal immigrants has devastating effects on local economies.  while the position of "they broke the law to get here so we need to kick them out no matter what" reeks of moral superiority and is a complete disregard of reality.

Alabama, Georgia and Oklahoma (all bastions of racial tolerance) all passed don't-hire-illegals laws, and the results were horrible:

A new study details the economic impact of harsh immigration laws such as those passed by Alabama and five other states. Published by the Center for Business & Economic Research at the University of Alabama, it?s the first economic cost-benefit analysis (PDF) of the state?s immigration statute. Dr. Samuel Addy, an economist and director of the Center, found that the law, known as HB 56, will annually shrink Alabama?s economy by at least $2.3 billion and will cost the state not less than 70,000 jobs. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-14/alabamas-immigration-law-could-cost-billions-annually

Bitter Harvest: U.S. Farmers Blame Billion-Dollar Losses on Immigration Laws
http://business.time.com/2012/09/21/bitter-harvest-u-s-farmers-blame-billion-dollar-losses-on-immigration-laws/

Following the passage of Alabama's strict immigration law, which has caused thousands of undocumented immigrants to flee the state due to fears of deportation, farmers are suffering from a labor shortage that they say won't be filled by unemployed American citizens

Farmers in Alabama and other parts of the country often must rely on undocumented immigrants for labor because they say Americans aren't willing to commit themselves to strenuous, low-paying jobs that immigrants are willing to perform – and well. http://www.ibtimes.com/illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-leads-severe-agricultural-labor-shortage-325334

To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state?s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables. (this plan didn't work) http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/

Alabama?s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether. (…) Many farmers want to hire local workers, but it is increasingly difficult to find U.S. natives with the proper skills. Few are willing or able to perform the physically taxing and low paying labor which requires them to move with the crops, even with wages of $15-$20 an hour. http://www.policymic.com/articles/8272/alabama-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-destroys-farm-business

Back in 2007, theOklahomalegislature passed a bill titled the Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007, otherwise known as HB 1804. Its intent was just like that ofAlabama?s HB56 ? drive out undocumented immigrants.

   Supporters of HB 1804 said the same thing about undocumented immigrants that Alabama supporters are saying now ? that the undocumented are a drain on their state.

   Well, it?s been four years and Oklahoma legislators are seeing and feeling the effects of just how wrong they were.

   ?Since the passage of House Bill 1804, we?ve seen a mass exodus of undocumented immigrants who have taken up residence in Texas and other surrounding states where they pump millions of dollars into those economies,? Sen. Harry Coates, R-Seminole said. ?House Bill 1804 did little more than put Oklahoma companies at a disadvantage by sending dedicated, knowledgeable workers to competing companies in other states. Losing that workforce has been devastating for many of Oklahoma?s industries, including agriculture, energy and construction.? http://laprensa-sandiego.org/editorial-and-commentary/commentary/oklahoma-latest-state-recognizing-anti-immigrant-law-was-bad-business/

so all the build-a-wall yahoos are essentially saying: it's more important to kick people out on principle (AKA "just because"), then it is to have jobs and a healthy economy. 

what exactly is the problem that is being solved here?

tell that to the sixth-generation farmer who now has to sell his farm, for pennies on the dollar, because his business is no longer viable.

You just need to pay people more money and they will do the job.  If you want to pay people next to nothing you won't succeed without illegal aliens.  That is my whole argument you are just bringing more poor people who are uneducated who will be a toll on the system. It is great if you are Walmart or a farmer who doesn't pay their employees anything.  But bad for everyone else.

You think Walmart hires a significant number of illegals?

Julian, wrote:
You think Walmart hires a significant number of illegals?

One time they caught hiring illegals to clean the stores and having them sleep in the back.