The 2020 thread....

This worries me. I get that Trump seems like a bad outlying blip on the radar, but I think what comes after is going to be much much worse. He's a total fascist scumbag, but there is certainly a lot of testing the waters shit going down.  How much will people take?

There was outrage about two stolen SCOTUS seats (including a rapist!), and sure some congressmen got yelled at, but everyone just accepted it in the end.

Sure, we're disgusted at child separation and horrified that some kids died, but beyond using #Resistance when we tweet and sharing articles about it while saying "THIS IS NOT NORMAL", it's still happening.

Rich are getting richer at the expense of actual working class people losing what little safety net they have, and no one is storming the gates.

I do think there's a game to see how far they can take it, and it's just given more leverage to whatever competent ghoul comes next. 

People are going to be more and more willing to accept fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" if they're not given a better alternative, and I don't think HRC and her ilk are that.

stollen-hätch wrote:

nkotb wrote:Still, I do genuinely think … in the long run she'd wind up being worse.
But if we had another 4 years of bloodless corporate liberalism, I really think that whatever came AFTER would be way worse than Trump.

dude, please pass that joint, but you are high as shit if you believe that…definitely helping Hutch's case with that argument

nkotb wrote:
This worries me. … but there is certainly a lot of testing the waters shit going down.  How much will people take?

I really don't think that anyone in the Dem heirichy is thinking of using Trump's facist model…so not sure where you are going with that

There was outrage
we're disgusted
no one is storming the gates.
it's still happening.

umm…isn't this what 2020 is all about.  I'm coming to the opinion that protesting in the streets doesn't do crap.  Problem is now there are SOO many things we're up in arms about their could be a protest every day and we'd still be missing things that are getting destroyed by team trump

Here is how we do it:
Get in power at the state and national level again and then work to make change
we can scream and post memes all we want…but they played the game right (albeit with some very shady tactics) and won.  We know the rules, play the game by the rules and if the people don't want it…then your message isn't being said well or the people really don't want it
In my heart of hearts I think that USA is way more liberal than the elections indicate…but we suck at messaging and getting the vote out.
If we could work on that…this minority majority will be sidelined
The GOP has mastered the tactic of getting people to vote against their own interest ….I don't think the Dem's…including Hill do that at all
The Dems have taken a lot of their constituents for granted, but they are not outright working against them (not in my opinion)

I want the candidates to state their case and platforms….but in the end it's ONLY about getting that fascist criminal out of 1600 Penn….and maybe into a Penitentiary

People are going to be more and more willing to accept fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" if they're not given a better alternative, and I don't think HRC and her ilk are that.

So again…you are pretty much sealing Hutch's case here and I cannot back your stance on this
Just because the GOP has been overtaken by Team Trump…doesn't mean that any Democrat…including Biden, has any intention on going the fascist route
are any of the 21 candidates doing fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" (well we do need to get better about complaining about the Trump Voter…as that's not going to help our case…see the deplorables incident)

Sorry, I wasn't 100% clear. 

I don't think Dems will go full fash by any means, though I do think they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

But right now, they're all beholden to corporate interests, are willing to forego their principles to avoid rocking the boat by seeming too left, and typically want to look for some tax credit, or debt refinancing or silicon valley tech solution to problems facing the masses. If they don't refocus efforts on helping their actual base and not whatever lobbying firm gives them the most money, I think voters are going to have an easier and easier time accepting the shit republicans are spewing. 

It's happening everywhere…this isn't some experience unique to the US. And unless Democrats accept that maybe they should change their approach, I think they're dead in the water.

stollen-hätch wrote:
So again…you are pretty much sealing Hutch's case here and I cannot back your stance on this
Just because the GOP has been overtaken by Team Trump…doesn't mean that any Democrat…including Biden, has any intention on going the fascist route
are any of the 21 candidates doing fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" (well we do need to get better about complaining about the Trump Voter…as that's not going to help our case…see the deplorables incident)

nkotb wrote: they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

this statement…
I don't think any candidate is running on "classism, racism, xenophobia"
even remotely
but the GOP is….so if they American voter likes those things…well then we are  screwed

also, I don't think we'll ever get Republicans (unless this whole presidency goes down Nixon style)…but it's the independent voter is the vote we want.
full on Republicans and those who lean…don't even make up 40% of the poulation
we need to reach out to those people and not worry about getting the Trump voter to turn based on some bombshell news story

Mayor Pete is still trying to ride this wave (and not doing a bad job…but there is a long way to go)

Maybe mayor butt-plug was more appropriate and space was right!

Booty-Judge Judy with Pete Buttigieg!

On the campaign trail, everyday Americans have been asking me, "How do you know if a guy has a grade-A booty?" That's easy: proportion. Do you see how each cheek is the same size as his head? That's good balance, the kind of balance I would bring to the White House.

spoiler…this is satire (it's from Dan Savage's site)

stollen-hätch wrote:
Booty-Judge

so last month… sheesh.

stollen-hätch wrote:
(it's from Dan Savage's site)

it's not savage's site.  the stranger is a seattle independent/alternative newspaper - actually, it was a newspaper, they have recently gone digital only (i can hear vansmack clapping already).  savage just happens to be their most known writer.

I don't know. History has kind of proven that Democrats are willing to move center right pretty willingly to avoid smears that they're soft on crime, or for open borders, or communists, without ever getting smart enough to realize no matter what they do, they'll get the same smears.

I am with you about targeting Republicans.  They like 90+% approve of what Trump's doing…you aren't going to win them over, and there are maybe like 3 actual Never Trump Republicans out there in total.  Get those unmotivated voters and independents…I mean, those are the folks that came out for Obama's "hope and change" and then bailed when it turned out to not be true.

stollen-hätch wrote:

nkotb wrote: they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

this statement…
I don't think any candidate is running on "classism, racism, xenophobia"
even remotely
but the GOP is….so if they American voter likes those things…well then we are  screwed

also, I don't think we'll ever get Republicans (unless this whole presidency goes down Nixon style)…but it's the independent voter is the vote we want.
full on Republicans and those who lean…don't even make up 40% of the poulation
we need to reach out to those people and not worry about getting the Trump voter to turn based on some bombshell news story

Also:

Buttigieg is the only top 2020 candidate not offering staffers health care yet

It shouldn't be this hard, I dont' think!

^so again with the pointing guns at your own team….but I'm starting to think you are on the 'destroy the Democratic party team'

staff on campaigns are historically underpaid (if paid at all) and overworked…and I don't have a problem with that

nkotb wrote: there are maybe like 3 actual Never Trump Republicans out there in total. 

  lets be clear…these are elected officials who will do anything to keep their job…not voters

Get those unmotivated voters and independents…I mean, those are the folks that came out for Obama's "hope and change" and then bailed when it turned out to not be true.

So we are now smearing BO's time in office too, yikes

My stance is they bailed…but not for that reason…

I heard a great comment by Bakari Sellers on Maher this week
"the couch is always on the ballot"  and I 100% agree
we must make sure to get people motivated to get up off their ass and vote
I guarantee that if those three states got a do over
the trump vote would probably be exactly the same and the Hil vote would have gone up enough to close the gap
people were not that concerned that she would lose…and I blame the dems for not realizing that and really making strides to make sure that everyone knew that it was going to be razor thin and every vote counts

stollen-hätch wrote:
^so again with the pointing guns at your own team….but I'm starting to think you are on the 'destroy the Democratic party team'

If they're going to continue to be sell-outs and corporate shills, then yes, push them into a volcano. 

But I truly believe with a little refocus they could be good! I think there are a lot of people that really want to fight the good fight for working people, but that the Dems that want to take big money from donors and do their bidding are digging in their heels because they see a threat to their gravy train. I definitely don't think that any of them automatically earn my vote or respect because they have D next to their name.

I do think Obama was kind of a shitty president in the long run. Practically everyone of his big achievements have been overturned (except ACA but that's been a victim of its own kowtowing to the insurance industry).  Lots of what he ran on didn't come to pass due to his own tail-tucking.  Most people deported under any other president (yes, the definition changed, but still…). Flying murder bots raining hellfire on weddings.  Zero people facing accountability for collapsing the economy or for torture under GWB.  Those things, to me, are bad!

Look, I get he was stone-walled a lot. But he also tried to find common ground with a bunch of maniacs that would refuse anything he offered. SO fuck them and stand for what you believe in. And I do think his shift between campaign rhetoric and what he did as president is a big reason why like 1,000 seats were lost during his term.

I think thats the crux of what these dummies are missing.  I think people aren't willing to as easily accept the lesser of two evils, and more so voters aren't showing up when they're not given a champion. 

stollen-hätch wrote:
staff on campaigns are historically underpaid (if paid at all) and overworked…and I don't have a problem with that

Well, historically kids could work in factories, but that was a bummer and people changed it. I can't really accept that staffers get underpaid or not paid at all. That's garbage and if a candidate does it, I think it speaks volumes to their actual beliefs.

TL;DR version:

Agreed…give voters something to motivate them to show up at the polls. Right now, I don't think more than 2 or 3 of them actually are.

nkotb wrote:

stollen-hätch wrote:
staff on campaigns are historically underpaid (if paid at all) and overworked…and I don't have a problem with that

Well, historically kids could work in factories, but that was a bummer and people changed it. I can't really accept that staffers get underpaid or not paid at all. That's garbage and if a candidate does it, I think it speaks volumes to their actual beliefs.

totally disagree and equating kids in factories to campaign staffers is insane
I don't have a problem with people working for a campaign being overworked and underpaid
If you believe in the candidate, put your money where your mouth is
different if you are working to put food on the table for a family…if your family can't afford to have you working on a campaign…the buck up buddy and take care of your family first. 

can you believe it has only been about ~100 days since the government shutdown ended!
to me it seems like a decade ago…(I had to go look up what happened in the end of January for his poor poll numbers!)

The Congressional Budget Office estimated the shutdown cost the American economy at least $11 billion!

I note this as it was the high point for Trump disapproval (57%) and his lowest approval (39%)

gotta imagine the independent voter hated that and we should really use it

stollen-hätch wrote:

nkotb wrote: there are maybe like 3 actual Never Trump Republicans out there in total. 

  lets be clear…these are elected officials who will do anything to keep their job…not voters

elected officials are voters, too.  a vote is a vote.

sweetcell wrote:
elected officials are voters, too.  a vote is a vote.

In the Electoral College system, this is only true depending on what state you live in.

Lot of Trump States are getting a major impact by this trade war with china
2020 is far enough away that the long term impact will be felt by voters

This could be the thread that unravels his 'great economy' benefit he has into 2020


'nother thing the Dems could focus on …REAL PLANS for job retraining of Americans in poor areas
forget manufacturing and COAL…people hate those jobs to begin with, but that's all they can do



States where automation will wipe out the most jobs in the U.S.

The five states with the highest share of at-risk jobs are Indiana (29%), Kentucky (29%), South Dakota (28%), Arkansas (28%), and Iowa (28%) — all of which went for President Trump in 2016.
Compare that to the bottom five: New York (20%), Maryland (20%), Massachusetts (21%), Connecticut (22%) and New Mexico (22%), all of which went for Hillary Clinton.

I'm also a big fan of mandatory civil service for 18 year olds (could be the mil, but also Teach4America, peace corps, even working for your local city gov't)
this could really change everything 20 years down the road

stollen-hätch wrote:

stollen-hätch wrote:
Joe…the right can't seem to stop talking about Hunter
…and some not so kosher international dealings in the Ukraine and china….what say you about these allegations

good news joe.
Ukrainian official knocks down Biden conflict scandal promoted by Rudy Giuliani

I love how trump was spinning this
Trump himself said on Fox News: "Sure, I’m hearing it’s a major scandal, major problem. I hope for him it is fake news. I don’t think it is."

So Goul-iani is making a special trip to the Ukraine to 'get to the bottom of this'
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/10/politics/giuliani-ukraine-biden/index.html

Giuliani said he's meeting in his capacity as the President's personal lawyer and helping to defend his client.

stollen-hätch wrote:
the Ukraine

TAN: usually i have my lawyer take care of these things, but i believe he's out today so: please don't call it "The Ukraine".  it's just "Ukraine".