The 2020 thread....

You'er 100% wrong. She should run as a full fledged communist if she wants to win a red state

hutch wrote:
Totally


But saying Mitch hasn’t done enough is not blue dog it’s wack dog

I mean come on!

NKOTB lives in Bernie fantasyland

Schmolls-Hatch wrote:
With out Mitch…this country would be soo different

Merrick Garland.

He will forever be on the GOP Mount Rushmore for that move alone.

Schmolls-Hatch wrote:

nkotb wrote:  It's just another Joe Manchin, and fuck Joe Manchin.

So I'd take Joe Manchin 2.0 over Mitch any f'n day, any f'n day
I'm not a big fan of joe, but you have to play to your constituents

speaking of good old joe…did some pretty liberal thing today
"Days after the United States women's soccer team won their fourth World Cup, a US senator introduced a bill Tuesday that would prevent the use of federal funding for the 2026 men's World Cup until the US Soccer Federation agrees to equal pay for the women's and men's teams.

The bill, penned by Sen. Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, would prohibit the use of federal funds that would otherwise be provided to support host cities, local and state organizations, US Soccer, CONCACAF, and FIFA when the US cohosts the men's World Cup in 2026

Schmolls-Hatch wrote:

Schmolls-Hatch wrote:

nkotb wrote:  It's just another Joe Manchin, and fuck Joe Manchin.

So I'd take Joe Manchin 2.0 over Mitch any f'n day, any f'n day
I'm not a big fan of joe, but you have to play to your constituents

speaking of good old joe…did some pretty liberal thing today
"Days after the United States women's soccer team won their fourth World Cup, a US senator introduced a bill Tuesday that would prevent the use of federal funding for the 2026 men's World Cup until the US Soccer Federation agrees to equal pay for the women's and men's teams.

The bill, penned by Sen. Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, would prohibit the use of federal funds that would otherwise be provided to support host cities, local and state organizations, US Soccer, CONCACAF, and FIFA when the US cohosts the men's World Cup in 2026

I am one hundred percent in favor of this. I am also one hundred percent in favor of the GOP digging in their heels and refusing to kowtow, thereby de facto ending the US National Teams. #JuliansAmericaLongPlay

Can you guys explain to me the problem with asking people if they are Americans on a census of Americans? I mean what is so terrible about trying to count the number of Americans? I thought that was the whole point of a census particularly to be used to apportion representation and distribute resources


I must be missing something

hutch wrote:
Can you guys explain to me the problem with asking people if they are Americans on a census of Americans? I mean what is so terrible about trying to count the number of Americans? I thought that was the whole point of a census particularly to be used to apportion representation and distribute resources


I must be missing something

Voting is, and has always been, done as a proportion of people, not citizens.  (Think of the 3/5ths compromise).  This is part of a play by the Republicans to do undo that, and make districts based on citizens.  This impacts not only voting power, but also resource allocation. Anywhere with a University, or a large segment of foreigners would be disadvantaged.  This is largely cities.

The other thing that the citizenship question does is that it will make it less likely that Hispanic citizens will fill out the form because of the legitimate fear that the information could be shared with ICE.  Anyone living in a household that has both legals and illegals in it would be unlikely to fill out the census, thus skewing the data to underestimate Hispanics.

If you want to talk about full bore election reform to make it more fair/representative (like getting rid of the Senate) then going to citizenship might make sense.  Making that change in a vacuum, however, does not.

But until 1950 the census asked if you were a citizen?

if we are worried the information is going to be shared with ICE then the problem is not the asking of the question itself


I really think it’s crazy to say a country cannot count its citizens…that I thought was the point…


And as an American who checks off Latino I am sick and tired of Hispanics not voting or participating using every excuse in the book. Latino voting rates are abysmal. Most Latinos here are US citizens but they just don’t vote.

This whole issue is just another example of democrats being totally out of touch. I mean really? You can’t ask a person for purposes of a census wether they are a citizen?

So hypothetically if a state had million illegals they would get more representation in the House? Districts with more illegals counted get more representatives and money?

hutch wrote:
But until 1950 the census asked if you were a citizen?

if we are worried the information is going to be shared with ICE then the problem is not the asking of the question itself


I really think it’s crazy to say a country cannot count its citizens…that I thought was the point…


And as an American who checks off Latino I am sick and tired of Hispanics not voting or participating using every excuse in the book. Latino voting rates are abysmal. Most Latinos here are US citizens but they just don’t vote.

This whole issue is just another example of democrats being totally out of touch. I mean really? You can’t ask a person for purposes of a census wether they are a citizen?

So hypothetically if a state had million illegals they would get more representation in the House? Districts with more illegals counted get more representatives and money?

Just because something happened in 1950 doesn't make it right.  And the climate is quite a bit different right now.

I don't know your situation, but Latino voting rates are not low by accident.  They are low because one of the major political parties see their success as dependent on it and so they take actions to make it hard to vote.  It's not like the US doesn't have a proud history of putting up voting barriers.

Finally, illegal immigrants, or folks in mixed house holds have very legitimate concerns about how that information is being used.  Trump has broken down silos to make it easier to deport people left and right.  Why would you feel secure in giving out your status? 

hutch wrote:

So hypothetically if a state had million illegals they would get more representation in the House? Districts with more illegals counted get more representatives and money?

It's not just illegals.  It's also green card holders, people on student visas, etc… This was the same thing that happened when only rich white land owners could vote, and then before women had the vote, and of course the South got representation based on slaves who couldn't vote.

I hear what you are saying but I see nothing wrong with asking. That is the point of a census.

Another terrible hill to die on by democrats.

hutch wrote:
I hear what you are saying but I see nothing wrong with asking. That is the point of a census.

Another terrible hill to die on by democrats.

This is an existential threat to the Dems and their ability to hold the House or the White House.  The citizenship question is the spear of a 5 year plan by the R's to remake the electorate and undo demographic shifts. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html

I'm starting to think that maybe hutch hasn't thought critically about any of the things he's posting here…

gavroche wrote:

hutch wrote:
I hear what you are saying but I see nothing wrong with asking. That is the point of a census.

Another terrible hill to die on by democrats.

This is an existential threat to the Dems and their ability to hold the House or the White House.  The citizenship question is the spear of a 5 year plan by the R's to remake the electorate and undo demographic shifts. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html

Trump is going to ride this all the way to the White House

There just isn’t anything wrong with asking a person if they are a citizen

All the extrapolation about what that one question being answered could lead to is not reality. It could happen I suppose but to go from that to saying because it could happen we cannot be asked if we are citizens is crazy

Let’s count Americans in a census of Americans

Anyways gavroche appreciate your thoughts

hutch wrote:
I hear what you are saying but I see nothing wrong with asking. That is the point of a census.

Another terrible hill to die on by democrats.

So we now have documents that the whole idea the R's pushed this forward as they could see it would give them a clear advantage and hurt Dems
Mr. Hofeller … wrote a study in 2015 concluding that adding a citizenship question to the census would allow Republicans to draft even more extreme gerrymandered maps to stymie Democrats


it's just like gerrymandering and the Electoral college, they are figuring out ways to keep leaning it to give them a minority majority
so there is some ethical point I get you are trying to make, but they don't care about ethics, they just want to make it so they can create an unfair advantage to one political party by pulling all these stunts

Schmolls-Hatch wrote:

hutch wrote:
I hear what you are saying but I see nothing wrong with asking. That is the point of a census.

Another terrible hill to die on by democrats.

So we now have documents that the whole idea the R's pushed this forward as they could see it would give them a clear advantage and hurt Dems
Mr. Hofeller … wrote a study in 2015 concluding that adding a citizenship question to the census would allow Republicans to draft even more extreme gerrymandered maps to stymie Democrats


it's just like gerrymandering and the Electoral college, they are figuring out ways to keep leaning it to give them a minority majority
so there is some ethical point I get you are trying to make, but they don't care about ethics, they just want to make it so they can create an unfair advantage to one political party by pulling all these stunts

It's not even an ethical point, it's really a messaging point.

We have always counted non-citizens in the Census.  Way back since the framers intended write it, when we included Slaves, women and non-land owners.  So if we really believe in originalism, then the census is about taking stock of who is in the country, not who is a citizen!  (And for the record, we don't send the census to US citizens outside the country to figure out where they are living).

I get the concerns with the messaging around it.  The R's have generally killed the D's with messaging.  And even the fact that we are all using the word illegal immigrant shows that. That said, I don't think this is an issue that hurts the Dems because this isn't a voting issue for their base, or independents.  So I think they need to fight it hard (though I suspect they will lose in the rigged courts).

nkotb wrote:
I'm starting to think that maybe hutch hasn't thought critically about any of the things he's posting here…

Does anyone know the best way to get green smoothie and spittle out of a keyboard? I should probably just replace the keyboard, right?

gavroche wrote:
I get the concerns with the messaging around it.  The R's have generally killed the D's with messaging.  And even the fact that we are all using the word illegal immigrant shows that. That said, I don't think this is an issue that hurts the Dems because this isn't a voting issue for their base, or independents.  So I think they need to fight it hard (though I suspect they will lose in the rigged courts).

The R's have generally killed the D's with messaging. generally is being kind…95% of the time they win the messaging war.
I like that Dem's in general think for themselves…which is why we suck on messaging
But I do think that the political leaders really need to work on this as it's critical in these elections and we're typically losing on marketing, not actual policy

oh and Trump expected to announce executive action on census

Shouldn’t the point be to do things to win 2020 so that we can ensure the census results aren’t used negatively?


Or should we just battle to the death on this, ultimately lose as he includes question anyways and then we lose 2020 and he can use census to further decrease chances of democrats winning?

Is that our strategy cause it sure seems to be

Julian, wrote:

nkotb wrote:
I'm starting to think that maybe hutch hasn't thought critically about any of the things he's posting here…

Does anyone know the best way to get green smoothie and spittle out of a keyboard? I should probably just replace the keyboard, right?

The only winning move is to not drink green smoothies.