The Beer Thread

^so yes, not quite at the stage to be home brewing a sour….but I would like to get there someday.
As I do love a good sour

Went to a Sour Tasting held by Greg Engert and couldn't stop going on about  brettanomyces
So yes, was trying to show off the big brain on brad

But as far as home brewing sours, I think the main ingredient is time and allowing your brew be exposed to the air.

Have you tried using some of the fancy $18 a bottle sours and adding them to your own sours
As my understanding is frequently sours are a blend of longer aged batches and younger ones
Mostly to keep the cost down


sweetcell wrote:
Carlos wrote:
Sidehatch wrote:
sweetcell wrote:also, i've got 4 of my own sours coming online… i really shouldn't be buying commercial sours, but you just can't have enough pucker-beer on hand now can you?


Nice…might have to ask you some tips on your Brettanomyces



i know it's a fuzzy area, but brettanomyces doesn't make sour beer. 

lactobacillus and pediococcus bacteria are the main culprits.

true indeed, but where there is sour beer there is almost always brett (always when using pedio, and fairly often with lacto).  so my interpretation of sidehatch's question was "if you know about sour beer, you probably know about brett".

i've been using brett for a few years.  ask away, happy to share my knowledge/opinions.


i just wanted to show off.  8)
I haven't drank a beer or any other alcohol for three weeks now.  haven't smoked either.  I feel, good, and am saving some money too. 

jesus, wept.
Wait i thought you were drunk and naked on, like, wednesday.
oh, yeah.  damn, you, internet super sleuth.  I had two glasses of a wonderful petit verdot, and got so loopy that I didn't know what was going on.  but I had the worst hangover ever. 
Big beer weekend for us…it's our 12th wedding anniversary so we're drinking our one bottle of Westy 12, alongside a bottle of St Bernardus 12. Ironically, dark belgian ales and quads have kind of slipped in terms of what we both like…but I'm sure we'll choke them both down.
Space wrote:
Big beer weekend for us…it's our 12th wedding anniversary so we're drinking our one bottle of Westy 12, alongside a bottle of St Bernardus 12. Ironically, dark belgian ales and quads have kind of slipped in terms of what we both like…but I'm sure we'll choke them both down.


i'm interested in hearing a comparison.  i've consumed two westy 12s and countless st b 12's, and well, you could probably guess which one i liked best.  i always here the argument that they are close enough in taste that it's ridiculous to pay the premium for westy 12, but i think it might be justified.  its a damn fine beer.
i have both of these beers in the cellar.  at some point i need to break them out for a side-by-side.
Sidehatch wrote:
^so yes, not quite at the stage to be home brewing a sour….but I would like to get there someday.
As I do love a good sour
 
brewing sour beer isn't that much harder than a clean beer.

Sidehatch wrote:
But as far as home brewing sours, I think the main ingredient is time and allowing your brew be exposed to the air.

time yes, air no.  you don't need to worry about exposure to O2, even with your best efforts enough air will get in there.  too much air can result in acetic acid (AKA vinegar) and that's not the kind of acidity & flavor you want in your beer.  i do primary fermentation in a large carboy (or bucket), then transfer to a secondary that i fill all the way to the top (to the narrow part of the neck).  there is less than a inch between the surface of the beer and the stopper/air lock.

time & space are typically the toughest obstacles.  most sours will take at least a year of aging.  you need somewhere to store that carboy for many months, preferably somewhere dark and that doesn't get too hot, which can be a challenge for apartment dwellers.

trick to brewing sour beer is to get a pipeline going.  first year is rough while you sit around and watch the beer age, but once that first batch comes online you're rolling (as long as you re-brew right away to refill the pipeline).

Sidehatch wrote:
Have you tried using some of the fancy $18 a bottle sours and adding them to your own sours

yup, i prefer using bugs from bottles to most commercial offerings (certainly better than anything offered by Wyest or White Labs, smaller yeast vendors tend to have much better bugs).  at bottle share parties, i've been known to show up with a sanitized jar with some weak wort.  folks know to save the last pour for me.  dregs go in the jar, give the bugs a few weeks to ferment out the wort and recharge their batteries, and boom.  i currently have 2 cultures going, both based on dregs from several commercial beers.

here's a list of commercial beers with viable dregs.  not exhaustive, but a decent start.

Sidehatch wrote:
As my understanding is frequently sours are a blend of longer aged batches and younger ones
Mostly to keep the cost down

not all sours are blends.  certain styles need to be blended by definition, such as most belgian styles (gueuze, kriek, etc.).  many north american sours are single-batch beers.

i've never heard of blending being done for cost reasons.  as far as i know, blending is done for:
1) taste - the older beer will be more sour, the younger beer will be maltier, sweeter, etc.  blending is done to get the right balance of the two.
2) carbonation: the residual sugars in the young beer are what carbonates the beer.  instead of adding priming sugar at bottling, you're adding a beer that already has sugars in it.
Carlos wrote:
Space wrote:
Big beer weekend for us…it's our 12th wedding anniversary so we're drinking our one bottle of Westy 12, alongside a bottle of St Bernardus 12. Ironically, dark belgian ales and quads have kind of slipped in terms of what we both like…but I'm sure we'll choke them both down.


i'm interested in hearing a comparison.  i've consumed two westy 12s and countless st b 12's, and well, you could probably guess which one i liked best.  i always here the argument that they are close enough in taste that it's ridiculous to pay the premium for westy 12, but i think it might be justified.  its a damn fine beer.


Will report results on Monday.

We also have some Rochefort 10 and a couple of De Struise (Pannepot and St Amatus) beers that could be part of the discussion, but I think two high abv beers are enough for one Sunday afternoon sitting…
sweetcell wrote:
Sidehatch wrote:
^so yes, not quite at the stage to be home brewing a sour….but I would like to get there someday.
As I do love a good sour
 
brewing sour beer isn't that much harder than a clean beer.

Sidehatch wrote:
But as far as home brewing sours, I think the main ingredient is time and allowing your brew be exposed to the air.

time yes, air no.  you don't need to worry about exposure to O2, even with your best efforts enough air will get in there.  too much air can result in acetic acid (AKA vinegar) and that's not the kind of acidity & flavor you want in your beer.  i do primary fermentation in a large carboy (or bucket), then transfer to a secondary that i fill all the way to the top (to the narrow part of the neck).  there is less than a inch between the surface of the beer and the stopper/air lock.

time & space are typically the toughest obstacles.  most sours will take at least a year of aging.  you need somewhere to store that carboy for many months, preferably somewhere dark and that doesn't get too hot, which can be a challenge for apartment dwellers.

trick to brewing sour beer is to get a pipeline going.  first year is rough while you sit around and watch the beer age, but once that first batch comes online you're rolling (as long as you re-brew right away to refill the pipeline).

Sidehatch wrote:
Have you tried using some of the fancy $18 a bottle sours and adding them to your own sours

yup, i prefer using bugs from bottles to most commercial offerings (certainly better than anything offered by Wyest or White Labs, smaller yeast vendors tend to have much better bugs).  at bottle share parties, i've been known to show up with a sanitized jar with some weak wort.  folks know to save the last pour for me.  dregs go in the jar, give the bugs a few weeks to ferment out the wort and recharge their batteries, and boom.  i currently have 2 cultures going, both based on dregs from several commercial beers.

here's a list of commercial beers with viable dregs.  not exhaustive, but a decent start.

Sidehatch wrote:
As my understanding is frequently sours are a blend of longer aged batches and younger ones
Mostly to keep the cost down

not all sours are blends.  certain styles need to be blended by definition, such as most belgian styles (gueuze, kriek, etc.).  many north american sours are single-batch beers.

i've never heard of blending being done for cost reasons.  as far as i know, blending is done for:
1) taste - the older beer will be more sour, the younger beer will be maltier, sweeter, etc.  blending is done to get the right balance of the two.
2) carbonation: the residual sugars in the young beer are what carbonates the beer.  instead of adding priming sugar at bottling, you're adding a beer that already has sugars in it.


when sweetie talks beer, walky listens…. bitch.
I see sweets got his beer post doctorate
Yada wrote:
sweetcell wrote:
Sidehatch wrote:
^so yes, not quite at the stage to be home brewing a sour….but I would like to get there someday.
As I do love a good sour
 
brewing sour beer isn't that much harder than a clean beer.

Sidehatch wrote:
But as far as home brewing sours, I think the main ingredient is time and allowing your brew be exposed to the air.

time yes, air no.  you don't need to worry about exposure to O2, even with your best efforts enough air will get in there.  too much air can result in acetic acid (AKA vinegar) and that's not the kind of acidity & flavor you want in your beer.  i do primary fermentation in a large carboy (or bucket), then transfer to a secondary that i fill all the way to the top (to the narrow part of the neck).  there is less than a inch between the surface of the beer and the stopper/air lock.

time & space are typically the toughest obstacles.  most sours will take at least a year of aging.  you need somewhere to store that carboy for many months, preferably somewhere dark and that doesn't get too hot, which can be a challenge for apartment dwellers.

trick to brewing sour beer is to get a pipeline going.  first year is rough while you sit around and watch the beer age, but once that first batch comes online you're rolling (as long as you re-brew right away to refill the pipeline).

Sidehatch wrote:
Have you tried using some of the fancy $18 a bottle sours and adding them to your own sours

yup, i prefer using bugs from bottles to most commercial offerings (certainly better than anything offered by Wyest or White Labs, smaller yeast vendors tend to have much better bugs).  at bottle share parties, i've been known to show up with a sanitized jar with some weak wort.  folks know to save the last pour for me.  dregs go in the jar, give the bugs a few weeks to ferment out the wort and recharge their batteries, and boom.  i currently have 2 cultures going, both based on dregs from several commercial beers.

here's a list of commercial beers with viable dregs.  not exhaustive, but a decent start.

Sidehatch wrote:
As my understanding is frequently sours are a blend of longer aged batches and younger ones
Mostly to keep the cost down

not all sours are blends.  certain styles need to be blended by definition, such as most belgian styles (gueuze, kriek, etc.).  many north american sours are single-batch beers.

i've never heard of blending being done for cost reasons.  as far as i know, blending is done for:
1) taste - the older beer will be more sour, the younger beer will be maltier, sweeter, etc.  blending is done to get the right balance of the two.
2) carbonation: the residual sugars in the young beer are what carbonates the beer.  instead of adding priming sugar at bottling, you're adding a beer that already has sugars in it.


when sweetie talks beer, walky listens…. bitch.




I remember the days when he was solely a cream ale drinker. Now look at him go.  ;D
i'm somewhat obsessive about my hobbies.  for the past few years, brewing has been my only hobby.  i read a lot and listen to a lot of podcasts…

avery raspberry sour: really solid beer.  good amount of pucker-power, raspberries are evident.  not sure i'd pay $16 + tax for another bottle, but if it was $10 like they seem to be going for out west i'd get a case.  i would drink it now, vs. aging it.

also tried the victory kirsche gose last night - what a great summer beer.  just a hint of tartness to make it refreshing.  i can see myself crushing several of those on a hot day.  the missus, who hates sour beer, really liked it - in fact she walked off with my glass, i had to pour myself another one. unprecedented.  

and i was never solely a cream ale drinker… just so happened my fav beer for a long time was a cream ale (Sleeman cream ale).  off to do finish the second half of that raspberry sour ;D
sweetcell wrote:
i'm somewhat obsessive about my hobbies.  for the past few years, brewing has been my only hobby.  i read a lot and listen to a lot of podcasts…

avery raspberry sour: really solid beer.  good amount of pucker-power, raspberries are evident.  not sure i'd pay $16 + tax for another bottle, but if it was $10 like they seem to be going for out west i'd get a case.  i would drink it now, vs. aging it.

also tried the victory kirsche gose last night - what a great summer beer.  just a hint of tartness to make it refreshing.  i can see myself crushing several of those on a hot day.  the missus, who hates sour beer, really liked it - in fact she walked off with my glass, i had to pour myself another one. unprecedented.  

and i was never solely a cream ale drinker… just so happened my fav beer for a long time was a cream ale (Sleeman cream ale).  off to do finish the second half of that raspberry sour ;D


we'll have to do a sour trade later this year - i've got a collective barrel-aged sour that you might like - it's base is a cuvee de tomme clone and we'll be bottling it soon.  what do you recommend for aging on fruit? i was going to split half my allotment (5 gallons) and let it age on some fruit also was going to brew a clean saison this week and then rack it on some frozen fruit for 2-3 months then keg it for late summer drinking.  does this plan make sense?
Carlos wrote:
we'll have to do a sour trade later this year -
 
funny, i was just thinking that last week. i'll have to send you mine ASAP.  i have a brett IPA that is at its prime right now.  plus, the weather is only going to get warmer…

Carlos wrote:
i've got a collective barrel-aged sour that you might like - it's base is a cuvee de tomme clone

sounds awesome.  how big is the barrel?  i've been considering going in on a 30-gallon barrel with 1 or 2 other guys. 

Carlos wrote:
what do you recommend for aging on fruit? i was going to split half my allotment (5 gallons) and let it age on some fruit

will depend on the base beer…. it's a brett'ed quad, right?  seems like you'd want to go with something pretty bold to cut through: sour cherries would be my first choice, raspberries would also be good (and can be used at slightly below the standard rate of 2 lbs/gallon).  i would skip any stone fruit (apricots, peaches, etc) as they are likely to be too subtle to be noticed.  i have yet to taste a blueberry beer that has impressed me.  i'm wondering what pineapple would taste like in a brett'ed quad…

you going to use fresh?  frozen?  canned/puree?

Carlos wrote:
also was going to brew a clean saison this week and then rack it on some frozen fruit for 2-3 months then keg it for late summer drinking.  does this plan make sense?

2-3 months on fruit is really long for a clean beer.  sour beers need that long but clean ones don't.  2 weeks is pretty standard, so a month would be more than enough.  your saison will have plenty of viable saccharomyces left, they'll ferment the fruit quickly.  with aged sour beers, you're depending on brett & bacteria to ferment the fruit (and the pulp, and everything else) which is going to take more time.  when i added sour cherries to my soon-to-be-kriek, it took 7 or 8 days for the first signs of activity to show up.
Carlos wrote:
Space wrote:
Big beer weekend for us…it's our 12th wedding anniversary so we're drinking our one bottle of Westy 12, alongside a bottle of St Bernardus 12. Ironically, dark belgian ales and quads have kind of slipped in terms of what we both like…but I'm sure we'll choke them both down.


i'm interested in hearing a comparison.  i've consumed two westy 12s and countless st b 12's, and well, you could probably guess which one i liked best.  i always here the argument that they are close enough in taste that it's ridiculous to pay the premium for westy 12, but i think it might be justified.  its a damn fine beer.


I liked the Westy 12 slightly better, but only slightly. Admittedly that may have been because I wanted it that way. I thought they were fairly close in taste and quality. But are excellent beers.

My wife, after referring to it as "Westie 12" on Facebook, proclaimed it a tie and said she'd rather be drinking an IPA. Typical hophead.
sweetcell wrote:
Carlos wrote:
what do you recommend for aging on fruit? i was going to split half my allotment (5 gallons) and let it age on some fruit

will depend on the base beer…. it's a brett'ed quad, right?  seems like you'd want to go with something pretty bold to cut through: sour cherries would be my first choice, raspberries would also be good (and can be used at slightly below the standard rate of 2 lbs/gallon).  i would skip any stone fruit (apricots, peaches, etc) as they are likely to be too subtle to be noticed.  i have yet to taste a blueberry beer that has impressed me.  i'm wondering what pineapple would taste like in a brett'ed quad…

you going to use fresh?  frozen?  canned/puree?


55 gallon barrel, closer to belgian strong ale than anything, i guess it was a recipe inspired by cuvee de tomme rather than a clone.  same beer characteristics hold true (candi sugar, dark fruity flavor, big dark beer) but it's about 3% abv short.  when we taste it next week before bottling, i'll have pineapple on my mind :D  i think i would cut it up fresh, freeze it, then let it unthaw in the secondary and rack onto it.

sweetcell wrote:
Carlos wrote:
also was going to brew a clean saison this week and then rack it on some frozen fruit for 2-3 months then keg it for late summer drinking.  does this plan make sense?

2-3 months on fruit is really long for a clean beer.  sour beers need that long but clean ones don't.  2 weeks is pretty standard, so a month would be more than enough.  your saison will have plenty of viable saccharomyces left, they'll ferment the fruit quickly.  with aged sour beers, you're depending on brett & bacteria to ferment the fruit (and the pulp, and everything else) which is going to take more time.  when i added sour cherries to my soon-to-be-kriek, it took 7 or 8 days for the first signs of activity to show up.


no more clean beer strategy. brewed the saison yesterday and pitched 3711 simultaneously with bottle dregs from two fantastic sours (between the staves and an ale from propolis).  fermentation is already underway and i'm thinking now ive got 3 weeks of fermenting out, then i'll rack it to a carboy for 6 months then re-evaluate.  i don't think i realized how long the waiting period to drink was extended by pitching those dregs.  might be the start of my sour pipeline…

thanks for the info! you're like the mad fermentationist with 1000 less words.
Space wrote:
Carlos wrote:
Space wrote:
Big beer weekend for us…it's our 12th wedding anniversary so we're drinking our one bottle of Westy 12, alongside a bottle of St Bernardus 12. Ironically, dark belgian ales and quads have kind of slipped in terms of what we both like…but I'm sure we'll choke them both down.


i'm interested in hearing a comparison.  i've consumed two westy 12s and countless st b 12's, and well, you could probably guess which one i liked best.  i always here the argument that they are close enough in taste that it's ridiculous to pay the premium for westy 12, but i think it might be justified.  its a damn fine beer.


I liked the Westy 12 slightly better, but only slightly. Admittedly that may have been because I wanted it that way. I thought they were fairly close in taste and quality. But are excellent beers.

My wife, after referring to it as "Westie 12" on Facebook, proclaimed it a tie and said she'd rather be drinking an IPA. Typical hophead.


IPA is still king.  there's four or five days of the year when i say "damn, a quad sounds really nice right now".  i guess we are lucky that one of the best quads out there is always turding it up on the shelves.
is westy "better", because it is so hard to get?  I see st bernardus everywhere, so I know in America, we get bored of things too easy to find.