redsock
Joined: February 20, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1893
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 04:01 PM UTC
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Originally posted by callat703:
While economics I'm sure play a part, to say that the laws have nothing to do with it is untrue. Laws have plenty to do with it. It is much less about money than it is about legality, safety and security.
See: http://www.ontaponline.com/view_article.php?article_id=10252
Good article, but it doesn't address the history DC has had with this issue, going back to the late 70s and early 80s. The large black X and what it became a symbol of, Mackaye and the whole straight-edge movement. A lot of DC's musical past has been highly influenced by the "all-ages" show. Granted, this wasn't meant to be a Rolling Stone cover piece, but there is much more to the story.
It's interesting, as I have run across this problem booking a lot of DC bands. Many of the DC-punk scene, new and old, really hold tight to the beliefs that it's underage or nothing. I'm sure Snailhook has too, but he has more underage options. I am on the fence honestly. I think you have to look at it from the venues point of view and from the concert-goer. Both sides can make valid arguements.
brokensocscene
Joined: December 12, 2005 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 9016
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 04:46 PM UTC
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Why are we even arguing about this subject? The 930 Club and Black Cat are the only major venues in DC and both are all-ages.
Why don't we complain about the lack of DC venues and/or the lack of good local bands?!
sweetcell
Joined: July 18, 2006 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 22608
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 04:48 PM UTC
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Originally posted by callat703:
While economics I'm sure play a part, to say that the laws have nothing to do with it is untrue. Laws have plenty to do with it. It is much less about money than it is about legality, safety and security.
See: http://www.ontaponline.com/view_article.php?article_id=10252
funny, my read of that article is that money is still the main concern: selling booze (making profit), needing extra staff (cost of profit), avoiding fines (less profit).
Rhett Miller
Joined: November 15, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 17762
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 04:52 PM UTC
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How do you define "major venue"?
Would you argue that the answer to getting more good shows here is simply putting in more venues? How about importing a population that actually enjoys rock music?
Originally posted by Joe M.:
Why are we even arguing about this subject? The 930 Club and Black Cat are the only major venues in DC and both are all-ages.
Why don't we complain about the lack of DC venues and/or the lack of good local bands?!
callat703
Joined: May 25, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1710
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 05:32 PM UTC
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Black Cat
FRI SEPT 22- SOFT COMPLEX (cd release), MONOPOLI, CEDARS (cd release) $10 mainstage 9:30
callat703
Joined: May 25, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1710
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 05:51 PM UTC
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Originally posted by Joe M.:
Why are we even arguing about this subject? The 930 Club and Black Cat are the only major venues in DC and both are all-ages.
Why don't we complain about the lack of DC venues and/or the lack of good local bands?!
If you really think there is a lack of good local bands, then you aren't looking hard enough.
And I'll add Nissan, Verizon, Merriweather, Warner Theater, DAR, Strathmore, Birchmere, and the Patriot Center to your list of major venues in the city or surrounding areas.
skeeter
Joined: May 29, 2003 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 4011
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 06:16 PM UTC
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Originally posted by redsock:
Good article, but it doesn't address the history DC has had with this issue, going back to the late 70s and early 80s. The large black X and what it became a symbol of, Mackaye and the whole straight-edge movement. A lot of DC's musical past has been highly influenced by the "all-ages" show. Granted, this wasn't meant to be a Rolling Stone cover piece, but there is much more to the story.
All-ages shows didn't always rely on bars and clubs back then. People were creating their own spaces. It's not like every bar in town welcomed underage folks. There were a few (hello 9:30) but it certainly wasn't the norm. I've always felt like this is one of those things that's been blown out of proportion over the years. Yes, it was important. But it wasn't as pervasive as people tend to portray it.
To be honest, I find it kind of funny that teenagers are complaining that they can't get into
enough bars and clubs. Betty seems to go to more shows than half the people on this board. She doesn't seem to have much trouble finding plenty of shows to go to. I think you guys have it pretty good.
Yeah - It sucks to be young. It'll pass.
snailhook
Joined: June 13, 2003 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1608
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 06:22 PM UTC
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If you really think there is a lack of good local bands, then you aren't looking hard enough.
i'll beg to differ. i'm a booker and musician and have at times worked door/security at a few clubs around town, so i get to see and hear tons of dc bands all the time, and i'll definitely say that there is a lack of interesting and top-quality bands in the area, especially when considering the persons-to-bands ratio. of course, this is purely subjective. what i find great and interesting others might despise, and vice versa. i just feel that there aren't many bands in the area doing something original or something with a lot of intensity. there's a lot of
competent bands here, but that doesn't mean shit to me.
as for all of the above issues, there's a lot to this argument and i can't get into it right now. but i'll say this: the bottom line is that most small venues just don't
want to make the effort to make shows all ages. it's mostly a matter of security, which would be resolved if there was one floating security staff to ensure underage kids are not drinking. if the warehouse can be all ages, then why not dc9 or the red and the black or the velvet lounge? the warehouse believes it's important to be all ages. the other venues don't care because they don't see money coming in from kids, and they don't want to make the extra effort to hire one more staffmember per show (or more for sold out events). if there was a way to convince them they could make a substantial profit off of underage kids, they'd change their policies.
and to the person who said that kids have less disposable income, i would disagree with that. kids in this area have more money because they don't have to spend it on bills. i see kids at all ages hardcore and punk shows drop WAY more cash on records and t-shirts than thirtysomethings with good jobs.
callat703
Joined: May 25, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1710
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 06:29 PM UTC
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Originally posted by snailhook:
If you really think there is a lack of good local bands, then you aren't looking hard enough.
i'll beg to differ. i'm a booker and musician and have at times worked door/security at a few clubs around town, so i get to see and hear tons of dc bands all the time, and i'll definitely say that there is a lack of interesting and top-quality bands in the area, especially when considering the persons-to-bands ratio. of course, this is purely subjective. what i find great and interesting others might despise, and vice versa.
Obviously, this is going to be a subjective topic. But by virtue of my job with On Tap, I listen to most of the local stuff that's coming out - or at least I try to. And yes, while there is a very large amount of stuff that really isn't all that great, I could point to about 10-12 bands that I really think are doing worthwhile music, with their own creative voice, that has potential to succeed on a national level. I don't necessarily personally love all of those bands, but in terms of music that I would buy regardless of whether it came from DC or not, I can think of five or six.
Even with only five or six strong, locally based bands, that's pretty good for a city of our size.
redsock
Joined: February 20, 2002 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1893
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 06:30 PM UTC
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Originally posted by snailhook:
and to the person who said that kids have less disposable income, i would disagree with that. kids in this area have more money because they don't have to spend it on bills. i see kids at all ages hardcore and punk shows drop WAY more cash on records and t-shirts than thirtysomethings with good jobs.
I totally agree with this. No one buys merch at DC9. At the Black Cat, when i work merch for the Clov, the same kids are buying t-shirts in different colors. Keep in mind with mommy and daddy's money too. The kids go out to a lot of shows and spend the loot, that is a fact.
snailhook
Joined: June 13, 2003 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1608
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 06:33 PM UTC
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I could point to about 10-12 bands that I really think are doing worthwhile music, with their own creative voice, that has potential to succeed on a national level.
i'd pretty much agree with that number, but i think a city of our size and with its history should have more. maybe my standards are too high? i find more interesting bands in baltimore and its metropolitan population is actually lower than dc's.
you be betty
Joined: February 28, 2005 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1920
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 08:36 PM UTC
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I have a lot of points to make today, woooo…
1) Unless they are extremely extremely extremely tight on budget, it isn't that difficult for a liquor serving venue to do a little research, get their permits, hire one more burly tatooed guy to X hands at the door, and host all-ages shows. The Black Cat and 9:30 are obviously prime examples. It's really not that difficult. But different owners are trying to create different sorts of atmospheres. To me, it's extremely important to give people of all ages the chance to go to shows as regularly as they want to. Like the On Tap article said, everyone is entitled to hear live music. Additionally, it gives kids something to do. And the kids that are regularly going to the area concerts are not the kids that try to sneak in the weed and the beer and what have you. And if it's really necessary, most of us are smart enough to at least get wasted somewhere else down the street beforehand where you aren't going to get in trouble or kicked out of the club. Yes, there are always going to be kids that are going to ruin it for the rest of us and make it more difficult on the venues by not respecting the simple rules. But we're not all idiots here.
2) Redsock, thank you thank you thank you for making the effort to book the all-ages shows. It means the world to me, it really does.
3) Don't blame economics. If the venues around here were that concerned about making more money, they could. The kids around here are absolutely loaded.
4) Tell the writer of the On Tap article that booking isn't that big of a deal. Some friends that I go to school with are in a band that played the Velvet Lounge a few times when we were in 9th and 10th grade. We couldn't go see the shows, but they were definitely allowed to play :)
5) The other venues - Nissan, Merriweather, DAR, Verizon (MCI)…the shows do cost a ton of money. And for those of us with parents that don't pay their way through their concert-going ventures, going to shows regularly is way too pricey. They also don't typically book obscure electronic bands…
6) There are some great local bands playing around right now, so I have no idea what you're talking about and resent that you even said that. I know Snailhook is into different stuff, but it doesn't mean the others don't exist and aren't working their asses off. Go to the Black Cat on the 22nd and maybe you'll see what I mean.
lukiedookie89
Joined: May 15, 2005 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 399
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 09:12 PM UTC
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Bravo.
sweetcell
Joined: July 18, 2006 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 22608
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 09:34 PM UTC
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you be pickup - you beat me to it.
another quotable:
If the venues around here were that concerned about making more money, they could.
do you really think that venue owners are in the business of turning down business? interesting.
on point 4 - one annecdotal piece of evidence is enough to refute a point?
To me, it's extremely important to give people of all ages the chance to go to shows as regularly as they want to.
more power to you - go open a club and book away! really, it's pretty easy and doesn't cost that much (not that this is about economics, right?)
kosmo
Joined: September 23, 1999 at 05:01 AM UTC
Posts: 16329
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 09:49 PM UTC
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Suprised this hasn't been mentioned…
Death Cab For Cutie
Constitution Hall
Nov 6th
Tickets on Sale 9/16
Have they jumped the you know what?
you be betty
Joined: February 28, 2005 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 1920
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 09:58 PM UTC
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Originally posted by you be pickup:
Originally posted by you be betty:
3) The kids around here are absolutely loaded.
5) And for those of us with parents that don't pay their way through their concert-going ventures, going to shows regularly is way too pricey.
My third point was a general statement made about others in the area. The fifth point was specific to my particular situation. I shouldn't have generalized.
And if they didn't want to turn away business, they wouldn't turn kids away. There you go. It's not like they have an affect on the amount of over 21-ers that are going to buy alcohol, anyway.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 10:03 PM UTC
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How do you define "major venue"?
It's actually the major venues that are most likely all ages. Places like Warner, Patriot Center, MCI, DAR, etc. That's no problem, by their nature.
This is why, though, the complaint about DC from the under 21s irritates me. I grew up in a major city (if you combine Tampa and St. Petersburg, as you should, it's top 25). There was NO club that wasn't 21+. Just didn't exist. I still saw bands at places like theaters, arenas, etc. But I was S.O.L. for small bands at clubs that served alcohol.
DC, however, has two great venues that are all ages, and a high majority of acts touring stop in one or the other (if not one of the 'major' venues). This is a blessing, appreciate it.
bags
Joined: October 30, 2001 at 06:01 AM UTC
Posts: 8545
Re: Just Announced
August 31, 2006 at 10:10 PM UTC
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Originally posted by snailhook:
kids in this area have more money because they don't have to spend it on bills. i see kids at all ages hardcore and punk shows drop WAY more cash on records and t-shirts than thirtysomethings with good jobs.
Precisely – money that does NOT go to the venue. ;)
And each underage person not only doesn't spend money on booze, but displaces a person who would (or at least might).
Betty, I'm sorry, but this "entitled to listen to live music" is just insane, I gotta say. Then hire the band to play at your house. Venues are not yet public institutions funded by tax money. Thank GOD. You get so many opportunities in D.C., I think there's a lot to be thankful for. Plus, you have 30 - 40 years of seeing bands after you turn 18 and/or 21. Lots and lots of music can be in your life….